§
After section one hundred and eighty-seven of the Army Act the following section shall be inserted—
187A. This Act shall apply in relation to any territory in respect of which a mandate on behalf of the League of Nations has been accepted by His Majesty in like manner as it applies in relation to a British protectorate.
1467
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI consider this clause unnecessary. We were told on the Second Reading, when the usual passage of arms took place, that it was absolutely necessary to pass the Bill in order that we should have a disciplined Army. It is a-very extraordinary thing that we manage to keep up large bodies of troops in mandated territory—Palestine, Mesopotamia, Kenya Colony, before the Peace Treaty was ratified—without this Clause being added, without the mandated territories being brought within the same legislation as British Protectorates. The Ministry of Air is now affected owing to the great. numbers of aeroplanes badly needed in this country, which are sweltering uselessly in useless parts of the desert. They have managed to maintain discipline and to keep the troops more or less happy and contented all this time without this Clause. What did they do last year or the year before? This is not by any means an idle question. There is a very great question of principle involved. We should be extremely cautious about any legislation with reference to mandated territories.
There has been a great deal of suspicion, I think justifiable, about the British Governments' action—the last Government and this—with reference to these mandated territories, and it was most expressly declared by our representative at Paris, and on the League of Nations that those mandated territories are quite distinct from the British Empire. Thank goodness they are. They give us a means of cutting our loss and saving further expenditure and money uselessly upon them. But the principle is important, that we should proceed very cautiously before we accept this new Clause. The fact of the matter is that our Armies, not only in mandated territories, but in Constantinople, at Chanak, in parts of the world which are even mandated territories, outside the Empire altogether, somehow or other have managed to get along comfortably without this Act applying. Why is it necessary in this case to insert this Clause? On the Second Reading you allowed me to develop the argument somewhat on this question. I could get no satisfactory reply from the Government and now is the opportunity. 1468 If the right hon. Gentleman and the rest of the talent on the Government bench are not able to give me an answer on this stage of the Bill, there is the Report stage, and as the night becomes longer their brains will perhaps become brighter. I shall be happy to have a satisfactory reply.
§ Sir S. HOAREI will answer my hon. and gallant Friend. I am afraid, from what he has said, that we shall be deprived of another speech from him on the Report Stage, because I feel sure that I can satisfy him. The object of the insertion of the Clause is simple. At present the army in Palestine, or up to a comparatively recent time ago, was on active service. So long as the army was on active service no question of this kind arose. With regard to what the hon. and gallant Member said about Chanak and Constantinope, discipline has been maintained because the armies are on active service.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYDoes that apply to the Rhine army also?
§ Sir S. HOAREI cannot say off-hand, but I think it is so. In regard to Palestine, the state of the country has become so much more peaceful that some months ago we were able to bring to an end the condition of active Service, and on that account it is necessary to put the military administration in Palestine on the same footing as it would be in a Protectorate. In a Protectorate the High Commissioner has certain powers in connection with courts martial. For instance, it is his duty to confirm the death sentence. Death sentences, I am glad to say, are very seldom given in peace time, but it is necessary to put the High Commissioner in Palestine on the same basis as a High Commissioner in any Protectorate. That is the chief reason for the insertion of this Clause. There are two other additional advantages to be gained by this change. If the change is made it will be possible to imprison military offenders in civil prisons. That is impossible without this Amendment. It will also be possible to proceed in the civil courts against civil persons who unlawfully buy or steal military property. It is wholly owing to these three reasons that this Clause is inserted. The Committee will see that the result of it is to 1469 transfer authority that is now purely in military hands to the civil power. In Mesopotamia the state of affairs is still one of active Service, but as the country becomes more established the condition of active Service will come to an end. In that case this Clause will apply. There is
§ nothing controversial about the insertion of the Clause.
§ Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 227; Noes, 132.
1471| Division No. 81.] | AYES. | [11.30 p.m. |
| Ainsworth, Captain Charles | Falcon, Captain Michael | Murray, John (Leeds, west) |
| Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark) | Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray | Nail, Major Joseph |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Fawkes, Major F. H. | Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) |
| Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin | Ford, Patrick Johnston | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Ashley. Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. | Forestier-Walker, L. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) | Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot | Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) |
| Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence | Furness, G. J. | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Nield, Sir Herbert |
| Banks, Mitchell | Ganzonl, Sir John | Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John |
| Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague | Garland, C. S. | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh |
| Barnett, Major Richard W. | George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) | Ormsby-Gore. Hon. William |
| Barnston, Major Harry | Goff, Sir R. Park | Paget, T. G. |
| Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) | Gould, James C. | Parker, Owen (Kettering) |
| Becker, Harry | Gray, Harold (Cambridge) | pease, William Edwin |
| Senn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Greenwood, William (Stockport) | pennefather, De Fonblanque |
| Berkeley, Captain Reginald | Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. | Penny, Frederick George |
| Berry, Sir George | Gwynne, Rupert S. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Halstead, Major D. | Perring, William George |
| Blundell, F. N. | Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) | Philipson. Hilton |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Pielou, D. P. |
| Boyd -Carpenter, Major A. | Harrison, F. C. | pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray |
| Brass, Captain W. | Harvey, Major S. E. | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Hawke, John Anthony | Privett, F. J. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) | Ralne, W. |
| Briggs, Harold | Henn, Sir Sydney H | Rankin, Captain James Stuart |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel |
| Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) | Hewett, Sir J. P. | Rees, Sir Beddoe |
| Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) | Hlley, Sir Ernest | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) |
| Brown, Sir James | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Remer, J. R. |
| Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North) | Hohier, Gerald Fitzroy | Reynolds, W. G. W. |
| Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.) | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chrtsy) |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Hood, Sir Joseph | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) |
| Button, H. S. | Hopkins, John W. W. | Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W.) |
| Cadogan, Major Edward | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Rogerson, Capt. J. E. |
| Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. | Houfton, John Plowright | Rose, Frank H. |
| Cassels, J. D. | Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) | Roundell, Colonel R. F. |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hudson, Capt. A. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Chadwlck, Sir Robert Burton | Hume, G. H. | Russell, William (Bolton) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley | Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Clayton, G. C. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Cobb. Sir Cyril | Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. | Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. |
| Colfox, Major Win Phillips | Jarrett, G. W. S. | Sanderson, Sir Frank B. |
| Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale | James, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Sandon, Lord |
| Cope. Major William | Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Skelton, A. N. |
| Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) |
| Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) | Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. | Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) |
| Croft Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North) | Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir P. | Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Lorden, John William | Stanley, Lord |
| Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) | Lorimer, H. D. | Steel, Major S. Strang |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Lort-Williams, J. | Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. |
| Davies, David (Montgomery) | Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) | Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. |
| Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) | Lumley, L. R. | Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Doyle, N. Grattan | Maddocks, Henry | Sutcliffe, T. |
| Du Pre, Colonel William Baring | Manville, Edward | Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) |
| Edmondson. Major A. J. | Margesson, H. D. R. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Ednam, Viscount | Mercer, Colonel H. | Titchfield, Marquess of |
| Elliot. Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Ellis, R. G. | Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) | Tubbs, S. W. |
| England, Lieut.-Colonel A. | Molloy, Major L. G. S. | Turton, Edmund Russborough |
| Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) | Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. | Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) |
| Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. | Morden, Col. W. Grant | Waring, Major Walter |
| Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) | Moreing, Captain Algernon H. | Watts, Dr. T, (Man., Withington) |
| Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honlton) | wells, S. R. |
| Eyres Monsell, Com- Bolton M | Murchison, C. K | wheler, Col. Granville C. H. |
| White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) | Wood, Rt. Hn. Edward F. L. (Ripon) | Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich) |
| Willey, Arthur | Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) | |
| Winterton, Earl | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Wise. Frederick | Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward: | Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel |
| Wolmer, Viscount | Yerburgh, R. D. T. 1 | Gibbs. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adams, D. | Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) | Ritson, J. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) | Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) |
| Amman, Charles George | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Herrlotts, J. | Saklatvala, S. |
| Barnes, A. | Hirst, G. H. | Salter, Dr. A. |
| Batey, Joseph | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Sexton, James |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock) |
| Bonwick, A. | Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) | Shaw, Thomas (Preston) |
| Bowdler, W. A. | Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) | Shinwell, Emanuel |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jones. J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Briant, Frank | Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) | Simpson, J. Hope |
| Broad, F. A. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Bromfield, William | Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) | Smith, T. (Pontefract) |
| Brotherton, J. | Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) | Snell, Harry |
| Buchanan, G. | Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. | Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) |
| Buckle, J. | Kirkwood, D. | Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.) |
| Burgess, S. | Lansbury, George | Stephen, Campbell |
| Buxton, Charles (Accrington) | Lawson, John James | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Cairns, John | Leach, W. | Sturrock, J. Leng |
| Cape, Thomas | Lee, F. | Sullivan, J. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Linfield, F. C. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Darbishire, C. W. | Lowth, T. | Thome, W. (West Ham, Plalstow) |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Lunn, William | Thornton, M. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | M'Entee, V. L. | Trevelyan, C. P. |
| Dudgeon, Major C. R. | McLaren, Andrew | Turner, Ben |
| Duffy, T. Gavan | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Duncan, C. | Marshall, Sir Arthur H. | Warne, G. H. |
| Dunnico, H. | Maxton, James | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D.(Rhondday |
| Ede, James Chuter | Middleton, G. | Webb, Sidney |
| Entwlstle, Major C. F. | Millar, J. D. | Weir, L. M. |
| Foot, Isaac | Morel, E. D. | Welsh, J. C. |
| Gosling, Harry | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Westwood, J. |
| Gray, Frank (Oxford) | Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) | Wheatley, J. |
| Greenall, T. | Newbold, J. T. W. | White, H. G. (Birkenhead. E.) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Nichol, Robert | Whiteley, W. |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | O'Grady, Captain James | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Groves, T. | Oliver, George Harold | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Paling, W. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C) |
| Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) | Wright, W. |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Phillipps, Vivian | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Potts, John S. | |
| Hardie, George D. | Pringle, W. M. R. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Harris, Percy A. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Mr. T. Griffiths and Mr. Morgan Jones. |
| Hastings, Patrick | Riley, Ben | |
| Hayday, Arthur |