SEDITIOUS PROPAGANDA.

HC Deb 24 May 1922 vol 154 cc1209-17

Mr. GIDEON MURRAY

I beg to move, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prevent the importation from overseas of money, valuable securities or property intended to be used for seditious propaganda and for purposes connected therewith. This is quite a simple Bill, consisting of only six Clauses. The first Clause indicates the offences which may not be committed, namely, these which are enumerated in the title of the Bill as I have read it to the House. It includes also a definition of money, valuable security and property, and further it says that these articles when intended to be used for propaganda with seditious intent shall be contraband goods under the Post Office and Customs Acts. Clause 2 defines the expression "seditious intent." The definition embodied in the Bill expresses the common law of England as laid down in numerous decided cases, and summarised in Lord Halsbury's Laws of England, and in Stephen's Digest of the criminal law. Clauses 3, 4, and 5 deal with powers of search and arrest, and penalties and limitation of prevention. Clause 6 allows that the Bill shall be made applicable to the Irish Free State by Order in Council. It also sets out the short title of the Bill, "The Seditious Propaganda Act, 1922." This then is the whole scope of the Bill. The House will have observed what it sets out to do is to prevent the receipt and use of funds from alien sources for the purpose of Bolshevist and seditious propaganda in this country. As the House may be aware, the ordinary law provides no penalty whatsoever for the introduction of money or property for seditious objects. So long as the Defence of the Realm Act was in force there was no need for any law of this kind. But this defensive measure no longer exists, and meanwhile Communism becomes further entrenched, until it may happen that the Government of the day may be forced to pass panic legislation. Panic legislation is belated and often a deplorable way out of a crisis which should have been foreseen and guarded against in calmer and more dispassionate moments. I venture to believe that every constitutionally-minded citizen will support me in this effort to prevent this old country of ours from being politically and morally disorganised and Bolshefied, with all the inevitable accompaniments of pillage, murder, misery and starvation. There are, no doubt, some people who will take the view that convictions may be difficult to procure, and that therefore it is of little use to attempt to pass legislation which is, or may be, of a contentious nature. Let me remind these people that prevention is better than cure, and the mere fact that legislation existed in concrete form to deal with cases of wrongful importation would act as a considerable deter rent. All thieves are not caught, but there is less thieving, because it is a criminal act, and I ask hon. Gentlemen on the Labour Benches who cheer that remark to consider and ponder upon it. These, then, are the purposes of the Bill. Let me now state, as briefly as possible, the chief reasons for introducing it. First and foremost it is common knowledge that alien moneys and property have been entering this country with the object of fomenting Bolshevist disaffection and propaganda. I go back to 18th November, 1920, when the Home Secretary, replying to a question whether large sums had been sent over from Russia for Bolshevist propaganda, stated: It has been ascertained that a sum of rather more than £40,000, derived from the sale of precious stones sent from the Soviet Government, was invested by Mr. F. Meynell in Exchequer Bonds."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th November, 1920; col. 2080, Vol. 134.] This answer implies, though it does not expressly say so, that this money was being used for Bolshevist propaganda Later, on 20th April, 1921, the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, replying to a question, said: My attention is constantly directed to the Bolshevist propaganda in this country. … An accurate estimate of the amount spent cannot be given, but in December last a Bolshevist agent stated that it exceeded £23,000 a month. … There is evidence that some, at any rate, of the money came direct from the Moscow Government, but that was before the signing of the Trade Agreement."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th April, 1921; col. 1883, Vol. 140.] It is within the recollection of the House that subsequently Lord Curzon, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, wrote to Mr. Krassin definitely accusing the Moscow Government of having broken their pledge not to foment agitation within the British Empire. There is not yet trust in the faith of the Russian Soviet Government in this respect, as evidenced by the inclusion in the recent Cannes Resolution of a provision of protection against Bolshevist propaganda. The same question was even more recently discussed at Genoa. In addition, I wish to draw the attention of the House to the famous libel case brought last year by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. J. H. Thomas). In the course of his cross-examination, the right hon. Gentleman stated: I have no hesitation in saying that Russian money at the moment is subsidising the Communist movement. Sergeant Sullivan: The Russian rouble is extremely depreciated. Mr. Thomas: But the jewels are advanced in value. This case is still proceeding, and we may yet hear interesting developments from it. Let me instance one more proof, and a very important proof, that legislation is necessary. This proof comes from His Majesty's Government themselves, and it is evidently inspired by inside information. In reply to a supplementary question, on the 25th April, 1921, the Home Secretary stated: As to the law, I do not think it is sufficiently strong at present."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th April, 1921; col. 35, Vol. 141.] If over one year ago the law was not sufficiently strong, it is obviously not sufficiently strong now. It is just a little over a year since those significant words were spoken, and yet the Government have taken no steps to pass any legisla- tion in order to meet the situation, although—I say this with a sense of responsibility—I believe that the movement of Communism in this country is stronger than it was in April 1921. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Well, go and find out. These are the reasons why I have introduced this Bill, and why I ask the House to give it a First Reading. It is a Bill which I have shown is long overdue, and I hope that the Government may see their way either to adopt the Bill as their own child or to grant such facilities that it may become law. I regard it as a very fortunate coincidence that I should be introducing this Bill on Empire Day, for it is the British Empire that the Russian and German propagandists wish and are determined to undermine and to overthrow. They know that the best way to achieve this is to destroy the foundations of the parent country. I feel Therefore that I shall have support for this Bill from all those who believe that the future peace and prosperity of the world depend upon a strong British Empire.

Mr. J. H. THOMAS

It may seem somewhat ironical that my hon. Friend in introducing this Bill should have quoted me it support of it and that the party for whom I am speaking should have asked me to oppose it. I want, in the first place, to make it perfectly clear that we are anxious as any Member or any party in this House to stop seditious propaganda, but I ask the House to note the fact that the gentleman responsible for the introduction of the Bill bases his case on questions to the Government and their answers. In other words, he is moving a Vote of Censure on the Government.

Mr. MURRAY

I based it, not only upon questions put to the Government and their answers, but also upon questions put to and answers given by the right hon. Gentleman himself.

Mr. THOMAS

I have never put a question in this House on the subject.

Mr. MURRAY

I did not say so.

Mr. THOMAS

My action in this matter has been taken outside, and I shall continue to follow my course. I said that this is a censure on the Government. If what is taking place, as my hon. Friend alleged, be a danger to the State, and if, as I believe, he is honest in his belief, that there is something seriously taking place, I put it to him that, in substance, he is saying that he as a private Member is going to ask the House of Commons to do that which the Government themselves refuse to do.

Mr. MURRAY

That is quite right.

Mr. THOMAS

That is exactly our case. We believe that, if the Government themselves are aware of what is taking place, if they believe that it is against the Empire, and if they have the proof, they are wanting in their duty not to come forward and deal with the question themselves.

Mr. MURRAY

Hear, hear!

Mr. THOMAS

it is not for a private Member to deal with it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] In the second place, I want to submit that the language may be open to a construction that would be ruinous to the working-class movement as a whole. Here is a Bill to prevent seditious propaganda. If it were limited to any Government sending money to this country, I would not only not oppose it, but I would wholeheartedly support it, because it is not the duty of any Government to interfere with the internal affairs of another. It is not the duty of Russia to interfere with us, and it is not our duty to interfere with Russia. My hon. Friend, however, realises that the International Trades Union Movement sends money to this country, and they are entitled to send money to this country for legitimate purposes. [Interruption.] Are we going to allow anyone to interpret what is seditious? There are many people who would make the propagation of trade unionism seditious. [Interruption.] We had a Bill introduced last Friday, and many supporters of it did not hesitate to say that their only object was

to make it difficult for the trade union movement to support the Labour party.

Mr. STANTON

Nonsense!

Mr. THOMAS

I am stating my views. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdare (Mr. Stanton) is himself a judge of manners, and I do not propose to quarrel with him.

Mr. STANTON

You might as well not. If I am insulted, and hear all sorts of names shouted at me from the other side, am I not permitted to bully them back a bit in their own way?

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. Member himself began interrupting. When only 10 minutes are allowed, there ought to be no interruption.

Mr. THOMAS

I therefore say that we ought not to give a First Reading to this Bill. There is no Member or party in this House that can claim a monopoly of patriotism or love for the Empire. No section of the House can say: "We alone are the guardians of the British Empire." We are just as jealous for the British Empire as the Mover of this Bill. We are anxious to see it preserved, but, equally, we want to see some individual liberty. We believe that this is a dangerous Bill. We believe that, if the things foreshadowed by my hon. Friend are true, it is for the Government themselves to take action, and for that reason we shall vote against the Bill.

Question put, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prevent the importation from overseas of money, valuable securities, or property intended to be used for seditious propaganda and for purposes connected therewith.

The House divided: Ayes, 221: Noes, 77.

Division No. 120.]	AYES.	[4.15 p.m.
Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.	Breese, Major Charles E.	Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill
Armstrong, Henry Bruce	Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Briggs, Harold	Clough, Sir Robert
Barnett, Major Richard W.	Brittain, Sir Harry	Cobb, Sir Cyril
Barnston, Major Harry	Brown, Major D. C.	Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)	Bruton, Sir James	Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beats
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.	Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.	Conway, Sir W. Martin
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole
Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell	Burdon, Colonel Rowland	Cope, Major William
Bethell, Sir John Henry	Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)	Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.
Betterton, Henry B.	Butcher, Sir John George	Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)
Bigland, Alfred	Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.	Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)	Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)	Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)	Casey, T. W.	Curzon, Captain Viscount
Blades, Sir George Rowland	Cautley, henry Strother	Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)
Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.	Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)	Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.	Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)
Bramsdon, Sir Thomas	Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)	Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Brassey, H. L. C.	Cheyne, Sir William Watson	Doyle, N. Grattan
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring	Lloyd, George Butler	Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Eiveden, Viscount	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)	Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.	Lorden, John William	Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)
Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godtray	Loseby, Captain C. E.	Rodger, A. K.
Fell, Sir Arthur	Lowther, Major C. (Cumberland, N.)	Roundell, Colonel R. F.
FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.	Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith)	Rutherford, Colonel Sir J. (Darwen)
Flannery, Sir James Fortescue	McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.	Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur
Forestier-Walker, L.	Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachle)	Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Forrest, Walter	M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.	Sharman-Crawford, Robert G.
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot	McMicking, Major Gilbert	Shaw, William T. (Forfar)
Fraser, Major Sir Keith	Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.	Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney)
Fremantie, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	Magnus, Sir Philip	Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander
Ganzoni, Sir John	Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)	Stanton, Charles Butt
Gardner, Ernest	Manville, Edward	Steel, Major S. Strang
Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham	Marks, Sir George Croydon	Stevens, Marshall
Gilbert, James Daniel	Marriott, John Arthur Ransome	Stewart, Gershom
Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John	Matthews, David	Sturrock, J. Leng
Goff, Sir R. Park	Middlebrook, Sir William	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A.	Mitchell, Sir William Lane	Sugden, W. H.
Grant, James Augustus	Molson, Major John Elsdale	Sykes, Colonel Sir A. J. (Knutsford)
Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)	Mond, Rt. Hon, Sir Alfred Moritz	Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)
Greenwood, William (Stockport)	Morrison, Hugh	Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)
Gritten, W. G. Howard	Mount, Sir William Arthur	Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell. (Maryhill)
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.	Nail, Major Joseph	Thorpe, Captain John Henry
Gwynne, Rupert S.	Neal, Arthur	Tickler, Thomas George
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.	Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)	Townley, Maximilian G.
Hallwood, Augustine	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers
Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Llv'p'l,W.D'by)	Nicholson, Brig.-Gen.J. (Westminster)	Tryon, Major George Clement
Hamilton, Major C. G. C.	Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)	Waddington, R.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	Nield, Sir Herbert	Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley)
Harris, Sir Henry Percy	Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John	Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)	Oman, Sir Charles William C.	Waring, Major Walter
Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank	Pain, Brig.-Gen. Sir W. Hacket	Warren, Sir Alfred H.
Hinds, John	Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L.	Watson, Captain John Bertrand
Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.	Parker, James	Wheler, Col. Granville C, H.
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Pearce, Sir William	White, Col. G. D. (Southport)
Hood, Sir Joseph	Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Piks	Williams, C. (Tavistock)
Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & cl'ckm'n.w.)	Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)	Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud
Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington)	Pennelather, De Fonblanque	Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.
Hopkins, John W. W.	Percy, Charles (Tynemouth)	Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)
Howard, Major S. G.	Perkins, Walter Frank	Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn.)
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Perring, William George	Windsor, Viscount
Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)	Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)	Winterton, Earl
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.	Pickering, Colonel Emil W.	Wise, Frederick
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert	Pilditch, Sir Philip	Wolmer, Viscount
Jodrell, Neville Paul	Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles	Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)
Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George	Pcwnall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton	Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)
Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)	Preston, Sir W. R.	Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward
Kidd, James	Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.	Yeo, Sir Alfred William
King, Captain Henry Douglas	Purchase, H. G.	Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)
Kinloch Cooke, Sir Clement	Raeburn. Sir William H.	Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth)
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George	Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)
Larmor, Sir Joseph	Remer, J. R.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Lindsay, William Arthur	Remnant, Sir James	Mr. Gideon Murray and Colonel
Lister, Sir R. Ashton	Renwick, Sir George	Gretton.
NOES.
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry	Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	O'Connor, Thomas P.
Banton, George	Grundy, T. W.	Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)	Rattan, Peter Wilson
Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)	Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)	Rendall, Athelstan
Barton, Sir William (Oldham)	Hallas, Eldred	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)	Halls, Walter	Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Hayday, Arthur	Robertson, John
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-	Hirst, G. H.	Sexton, James
Cairns, John	Hodge, Rt. Hon. John	Shaw, Thomas (Preston}
Cape, Thomas	Hogge, James Myles	Spoor, B. G.
Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely)	Hoimes, J. Stanley	Sutton, John Edward
Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)	Irving, Dan	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)	Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)	Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)	Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Lianelly)	Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)	Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)	Waterson, A. E.
Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)	Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.	Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.
Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)	Kenyon, Barnet	Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.
Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath)	Kiley. James Daniel	White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)
Finney, Samuel	Lawson, John James	Wignall, James
Foot, Isaac	Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)	Wilson, James (Dudley)
Galbraith, Samuel	Lunn, William	Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)
Gillis, William	Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)	Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.)
Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)	Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)	Myers, Thomas	Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr.
Greig, Colonel Sir James William	Naylor, Thomas Ellis	Kennedy.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Gideon Murray, Sir John Butcher, Colonel Gretton, Brigadier-General Cockerill, Mr. Ormsby-Gore, Mr. Neville Chamberlain, Sir Percy Newson, Sir Rhys Williams, Mr. Seddon, Lieut.-Colonel Ashley, Mr. Gould, and Brigadier-General Sir Owen Thomas.

c1217
1. SEDITIOUS PROPAGANDA BILL, 46 words