SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE, ETC., IRELAND. (Hansard, 23 February 1922)

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
I am glad to be able to inform the Committee that this Supplementary Estimate does not constitute a new charge. It is necessary 2174 because under the Act of 1920 the Courts in Ireland were divided. We have now the Supreme Court of Northern Ireland and the Supreme Court of Southern Ireland. No extra expenditure is incurred under this Vote as the cessation of the Supreme Court of Judicature of all Ireland coincides exactly with the setting up of the new Supreme Court in Southern Ireland, and I am asking the Committee to give authority to transfer to the new Court in Southern Ireland the powers of the Supreme Court of Judicature of all Ireland. On the total Vote granted by the House in the original Estimate for the Supreme Court of. Judicature of all Ireland, there has been a great saving so that no extra money is required for the setting up of both these Courts.

§ Sir D. MACLEAN
It is pleasant to hear that the Committee is not going to be asked to grant any further money, but I think it would be more satisfactory for us to know how much money has been saved by the exertions of the high officials to whom my hon. Friend has referred. I would draw the attention of the Committee to pages 20 and 21 of this Supplementary Estimate and the following pages up to page 25 which show the extraordinary and expensive way in which this business is being conducted at the present time. I find that in the Lord Chief Justice's offices there is a permanent secretary, a private secretary, a first-class clerk and a chief clerk, another first-class clerk, and trainbearers to Lords Justices of Appeal. I want to know what these gentlemen are doing at the present time. Can the right hon. Gentleman inform us if any of these Courts are functioning, because that is a most important point in view of the answer made by the First Lord of the Treasury to-day.
5.0 P.M.
We were told a little while ago that it was of the utmost urgency to proceed with the new Government of Ireland Bill, so as to clothe the Provisional Government with the necessary powers. But if the whole position is resolving itself once more into uncertainty it looks as if the only certain thing going on will be expenditure which this country has to meet. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what savings on the original Estimate have been effected which show that no further charge is being put on the 2175 National Exchequer? In the second place, what are these courts and officials doing at the present time? What law courts are functioning in Ireland? Is it the law courts paid for by the National Exchequer—and this Supplementary Estimate shows that the money is being drawn from the National Exchequer—or is it the courts set up by the Provisional Government? If so I presume the Provisional Government is raising money to maintain its own law courts. Obviously we do not want two sets of law courts and two sets of law officers in Ireland. This is a question of real importance. Why should the National Exchequer go on paying these heavy sums when no one knows what the position is in Ireland at all, Are not the Government going to meet by way of economising the very uncertain and inchoate condition which obtains in Ireland to-day? Why should all this paraphernalia continue to be carried on? Is the Provisional Government going to stabilise the form of Government? It seems to me that, whatever happens, whether there is a stable condition or an inchoate condition in Ireland, this country is going on paying.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
Perhaps I may explain why I am examining these Estimates. I would like to do so for the information of the hon. Member for Newcastle - under - Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood). It is not because I do not want to discuss unemployment and other great questions of policy. I do want to discuss them, and I wonder why the hon. and gallant Member who is vice-chairman of the Labour party does not arrange for a vote of censure to be put down. There are plenty of methods of going for the Government in regard to these questions.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
That has no relevance to the question before the Committee.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
I think it worth while asking one or two questions about this Estimate. I hold that, until the Government know that the Estimates are going to be carefully examined by the House of Commons, they will go on wasting the taxpayers' money. It is the discussion of details—a few thousand pounds here and there—that matters, and until we put the fear of God into the spending Departments they 2176 will take no notice of us. Bureaucracy is the strongest bulwark of the party of reaction. This is a Vote for £10. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that it is really costing no additional money at all. Why are we only asked to spend £10 in setting up the Southern Ireland Supreme Court, whereas in the next Vote we are asked to spend £19,800 on the Northern Ireland Supreme Court. It may be said that the original Supreme Court of Ireland is being used for Southern Ireland and that a new Supreme Court has to be provided for Northern Ireland. But surely some allowance should be made in respect of the assets of the old Supreme Court. There are some buildings and other assets, no doubt, otherwise legal gentlemen in Ireland would not be so eager to continue the Courts. Why is not the sum of £19,000 equally divided between North and South? I admit I am actuated by a desire to see the Southern Government accorded decent and fair treatment. We have given it plenty of unfair treatment up to date, while the Northern Government has been a spoiled and pampered pet. Perhaps the right Gentleman can answer the questions I have put to him.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I did not quite catch what the Chief Secretary said in explaining this Vote, but as far as I understand it, it is to all intents and purposes a new Vote. It, is quite true there is no necessity for any additional money, but, as I gather, this is money which has already been obtained for an object which apparently has not been carried out, and which is now to be used for the purposes enumerated in the Vote. The footnote says: Provision for the Supreme Court of Judicature (Ireland) for the full year 1921–22 was taken in the original Estimate. That apparently was never spent. Then the footnote continues: The setting up under the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, of the Supreme Court for Southern Ireland and the High Court of Appeal for Ireland necessitates the seeking of Parliamentary sanction for expenditure by these bodies. Therefore the original Estimate was never spent, and the money contained in that Estimate is to be used as stated in the footnote. I was under the impression that the Act of 1920 was no longer in existence. A certain Section of it is not 2177 yet in operation. We have, rightly or wrongly, surrendered to superior force in Ireland, and that being so the Act of 1920 no longer operates. Why set up these Courts when, in all probability, they will be superseded by the Sinn Fein Courts of the Irish Free State. If the money has actually been spent, that is another illustration of the evil of spending money before sanction has been obtained from this House. I fail to see why we should set up these Courts under the Act of 1920 when that Act has been abrogated. I do not say this out of any sense of hostility to the Government—I am sorry for them—but there is no law or order in South Ireland at the present moment, and therefore it is a complete farce to set up Courts to administer justice. This burden is to fall on the British taxpayer. If we do not pass this Estimate, I take it that the sum already voted will be applied to the reduction of the National Debt—a very good thing to do. I gather the Labour party already have a scheme for reducing the National Debt in some wonderful way. I am told it was printed in the "Daily Herald" this morning, and I think I may therefore appeal to the members of that party to give me their assistance in securing that this sum of £67,000 shall be used as a beginning for the reduction of the National Debt.

§ Mr. INSKIP
I find by Section 38 and the following Section of the Government of Ireland Act that the Supreme Court of Judicature of Ireland is to be divided into two parts, and I apprehend that what we are doing to-day is really to give effect to that, and to set up a Supreme Court of Judicature for Southern and for Northern Ireland. When I turn to the financial provisions, I find, in Section 21 (2) of the Act, a provision which I confess was rather a, comforting one at the time, namely, that provision shall be made by the Parliaments of Southern and of Northern Ireland for the cost, within their respective jurisdictions, of Irish services, and, as a taxpayer of Great Britain, I am it a loss to know why we should be required to provide money for Irish services when the Act requires that provision shall be 2178 made for them by the Parliaments of Southern and Northern Ireland. It was one of the sweet parts of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, that the British taxpayer was going to divest himself of some of these burdens in favour of the Trish taxpayer.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
And forget them.

§ Mr. INSKIP
As my hon. and gallant Friend says, we were going to forget them, and I hope he will carry that out in the spirit as well as in the letter. Why are we asked, in conflict with the provisions of Section 21 of the Government of Ireland Act, to provide these moneys? I agree with the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Peebles that there appears to be a good deal of paraphernalia connected with these Courts which might be dispensed with, at any rate so long as we are providing Irish services for. Irish people. Of course, if they like to pay for their own services, that is a matter which only concerns them. I invite my right hon. Friend to save this £69,000, or whatever it is, to the British taxpayer, and to give to the Irish governing bodies—to Mr. Michael Collins or whoever else it may be—the hitherto unknown privilege of paying for their own services.

§ Colonel P. WILLIAMS
The right hon. Gentleman has told us that, although this is a Vote showing a nominal increase of £10, it does not mean that the British taxpayer is being called upon to pay any more money for the purposes of the Law Courts in Ireland, but I venture to suggest to him that that is not so. A certain amount of money was voted in the original Estimate for the Law Courts of all Ireland, namely, £220,006. That was the total amount voted for the Law Courts of all Ireland, and what the right hon. Gentleman is doing in this case is to take-the whole of that sum and apply it to the Law Courts in Southern Ireland. Therefore, he will require a further Estimate for the detached portion in the North of Ireland, and that will come as an additional charge on the taxpayers of this country. That will be found clearly set forth in the next Estimate. If I may, just for the purpose of illustrating what I mean, refer to that next Estimate, I would point out that a sum of £19,837 is required for the Supreme Court of Judicature in Northern 2179 Ireland. Therefore it is clear that there is a large increased charge on the taxpayers of this country, and I think we ought to have a fuller explanation from the right hon. Gentleman before we pass the Vote in this form, because I do not think that any of us except the right hon. Gentleman himself understand it. I should also like to know from him what is the position with regard to these Law Courts now? The position has evidently changed. I gather from this Estimate that we are a year in arrear—that we are not dealing with the present situation, which has been very materially altered within the last few hours by the postponement of the self-government of Ireland for a period of three months. Are we to take it that this country will be called upon to pay the whole of the expenses of the Law Courts of Ireland for the next three months because the Irish people have decided to postpone their election?

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £20,000.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
It is only a £10 Vote.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £5.

§ Colonel WEDGWOOD
Before this Vote is taken, I should like to hear whether the sums in it will appear on next year's Estimate—whether we shall have to pay next year also for the salaries of these very extravagant staffs—or is this the last that we shall see of these salaries? Is Ireland going to take on the job henceforth and pay for its own justice, or lack of justice? If this is the last we are going to see of it, we will pass even this £10; it will be cheap at the price. What the taxpayer of this country wants to know first of all is whether we are getting clear of these charges. In the second place, are we also free from liability for the pensions and superannuation allowances of these train-bearers, first-class clerks, second-class clerks, map makers, women clerks, male clerks, and examiners? Are we hound to provide pensions for them, or do the pensions fall upon Ireland? If we are bound to pay them pensions, is the sum that we shall have to pay allowed as a set-off in the financial adjustments between ourselves and the Irish Free State? Further, is it possible that this 2180 £67,440 which is being paid by the taxpayers of this country for these Irish judges' officials may also lie set off when the problem comes to be worked out as to how much we owe Ireland, and how much Ireland owes us? I think it is very important that our bookkeeping should be careful at the present time, and that we should see that all items which can legitimately be set off in this problem of indebtedness should be taken care of and watched, so that we may get the advantage of them. In reply to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), may I say that I am not one of those who criticise looking into all these financial questions very closely. I think that is vital.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
The hon. and gallant Member is resuming his conversation with the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull, which I asked him earlier not to do. Even now, he seems to be addressing the hon. and gallant Member, and not the Chair.

§ Colonel WEDGWOOD
I will certainly address you, Sir Edwin, in this matter, because I think it is very important that the Committee should understand the Position taken up by the Labour party. We do not in the least object to discussion in detail of genuine points in these Supplementary Estimates.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
What has the Committee to do with that now?

§ Colonel WEDGWOOD
Perhaps I might finish my argument on this point. We do not object to detailed discussion, but we object to its repetition over and over again. We have, during the Committee stage, the Report stage, the Second Reading, and the Third Beading, the same arguments repeated. I consider that to be waste of time, and it is against that that I have been protesting. The first statement of the arguments, and the answers from the Opposition Benches, are essential to all good conduct of finance, and I hope we may have answers to those points which we have raised.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
The hon. and gallant Member knows perfectly well that I never repeat myself, although I sometimes repeat questions which the Government shirk and will not answer.

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
I will certainly do my best to answer the questions put to me. I quite agree that close scrutiny of these Estimates is essential. In the first place, this money for which I am asking in a Supplementary Estimate has already been voted by the House in the original Estimate. I am asking for this Supplementary Estimate, not for Judges, but for officials of the Courts of Southern Ireland, without which officials those Courts could not be carried on.

Captain BENN
Would the right hon. Gentleman say for what period this sum is being voted—for how many months?

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
Only till the close of the financial year.

Captain BENN
From what date?

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
From the beginning of the financial year. The original Vote was for the year now closing. I am asking the House, by the common, accepted expedient of a token Vote, to approve the payment of the money which has been already voted to the officials of the Supreme Court of Southern Ireland, as set up—and here I come to the root of the whole matter from the constitutional point of view—by the Act of 1920.

Captain BENN
That was not in force during the whole of the year.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
Yes.

Captain BENN
The appointed day was in July.

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
The hon. and gallant Member's interruption is really not relevant. If he will only allow me, I will make it as clear as possible. If I do not make it clear enough, there is still plenty of time. Under the Act of 1920, we set up two Supreme Courts in Ireland in place of the one Supreme Court of Judicature that existed before. I am now asking this Committee to approve the payment, to the officials of the Supreme Court of Southern Ireland, of the salaries and emoluments which are set out in meticulous detail in the Supplementary Estimate, because, since the setting up of those Courts by the operation of the Act of 1920, we have two Courts in Ireland instead of one, and I must get the approval of the House for these payments.

§ Lieut.-Colonel CROFT
Does the Court exist now in Southern Ireland?

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
Yes, certainly. All these Courts are functioning, and all these officials are functioning. Yesterday, after considerable Debate, I got a Supplementary Estimate because of the increased activity of these very Courts. They are all functioning, and these officials, I submit, are entitled to their emoluments and salaries which the House has already approved. It is because of the operation of the Act of 1920 that I must come to the House again, not for fresh money, but to confirm the Vote for the payment of a reduced number, largely of the same officials of the same Courts, but restricted to Southern Ireland. I would deal with the Northern Courts at the same time, but it is on another Estimate. It is so simple and so clear that the Committee will adopt it without question. As to this Vote, I can assure the Committee that the Courts are functioning. The amount of money saved out of the total Vote granted in the original Estimate for all the Courts in Ireland, in spite of the fact that we now have two Supreme Courts, in the North and the South, is about £5,000. Not only am I not asking for any more money, but the saving on the whole is about £5,000. The rejection of this Vote would simply mean that all the officials essential to the carrying on of the law courts of Southern Ireland would be refused the money they have already been promised in the original Estimate. It is said these staffs are swollen and unnecessary. I like to see the continuance of such quaint names as, for instance, Clerk of the Crown and Hanaper, which has a very interesting history. The word "Hanaper" was attached to the Clerk of the Crown both in this country and in Ireland, which is much more conservative in some things than we are. Hanaper really means a hamper, and the Clerk of the Crown with a hamper used to receive certain writs and seal them up and allocate them to the persons who deserved them. Hence the expression Clerk of the Crown and of the hamper in which the writs were carried. The name has been preserved in the vocabulary of the Irish Courts. It has been dropped in reference to the same officials in this country. The Clerk of the Crown and Hanaper in Ireland is also the Keeper of the Great 2183 Seal, he issues all election writs and is in every way a most useful officer. One of the results of the defeat of this Vote, I am afraid, would be doing away with the salary of the Clerk of the Crown and Hanaper, and it might delay the election which we all hope for in Southern Ireland. I hope I have cleared up that point. The hon. and learned Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip) says he can quite understand the Court being set up under the Act of 1920 in Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. INSKIP
And in Southern Ireland.

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
They are both set up under the Act. In Southern Ireland there has been, since the Courts were set up under the Act, a treaty made, and undoubtedly the time will come when this House will not be responsible for the Courts in Southern Ireland or for the payment of the judges or the officials, but in the meantime we are responsible, and I do not think it is fair to say we must stop the payment of the officials of the Courts, who are essential to the administration of the law, before the constitution of the Free State has been passed by Parliament and another scheme and another set of paymasters are evolved by the law.

§ Mr. INSKIP
I am obliged to the right hon. Baronet. Am I to understand that but for the Treaty being made we should not be asked to provide the money to pay for the establishment of the Supreme Court of Judicature in Southern Ireland? I thought that was what the right hon. Baronet put to me, that it is the Treaty that has altered the position, and the Treaty having been passed we are bound, during the transition period, until the Treaty becomes effective, to provide moneys which are intended, if the Government of Ireland Act had been in operation, not modified by the Treaty, to be provided for by the Parliament of Southern Ireland. The point I take is that we cannot in this year provide moneys which an Act of Parliament passed by this House said shall be provided by the Irish people.

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
Had it not been for the Treaty, this Supreme Court in Southern Ireland would have been in the same position as the Supreme Court in Northern Ireland. Under the Act it would have been a reserved service, and 2184 the payment of the expenses would have been taken into consideration under the head of Reserved Services. We cannot deny the fact that the Treaty means that, sooner or later—I am sorry I cannot fix the date earlier—the Courts in Free State Ireland will be taken over by the Government of the Free State, and the charges of this Court will no longer be a charge on the Votes of this House. The hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) asked is this the last Vote for Southern Ireland? I cannot answer that. I am only responsible for this Supplementary Estimate, and I think we are in duty and in honour bound to pass the Vote and enable the Courts to carry on. As for pensions, in so far as the staff of the Courts is pensionable, Article 10 of the Treaty says: The Government of the Irish Free State agrees to pay fair compensation on terms not less favourable than those accorded by the Act of 1920 to judges, officials, members of police forces and other public servants who are discharged by it or who retire in consequence of the change of Government effected in pursuance hereof. Further, as to pensions which are already being paid, my view is, that a share of these must be allocated to any new Government that takes over the Government of the Free State.

§ Sir G. COLLINS
Is that in the Treaty?

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
I have read the only reference to it. Before the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) came in, I tried to answer his questions. The Courts are functioning. This Vote does not deal with the judges but with the officials who are essential to enable he judges to carry on their work. I hope the Committee will give me this Vote for another reason, that I may pass on to the Vote for the Northern Supreme Court and elucidate that to the Committee.

§ Sir J. BUTCHER
I can assure the Chief Secretary that I share his desire that these officials of the Courts in Ireland should not be deprived of their salaries simply because there has been a change in the constitutional position in Ireland. They were not responsible for the change any more than this House was originally. They were not responsible for all the mis-government and the rest of it in Ireland. I am not going to be led into 2185 discussing who was, but I have a very good idea who is responsible for it. It is not us, at any rate. Therefore I think these officials of the Court should receive the moneys which were voted to them in the early part of the year, and should not be deprived of their salaries and so on simply because of this change in the Constitution owing to the Treaty. But will the Chief Secretary give an undertaking that a proper proportion of this cost, which the British taxpayer is asked to pay now, will be demanded from the Irish Provisional Government or the Government, whatever it may be, that succeeds them in the Irish Free State? The Provisional Government have been put in authority by the Government ever since the Treaty was signed. It is quite true that it was done illegally, but it was done by the British Government, and the Provisional Government have been in de facto Government of the country ever since December last. That being so, surely the Provisional Government or their successors ought to pay for the Law Courts and for the officials during the period they are in de facto Government of the country. Why should we pay? We have not been able to interfere effectively in the government of Ireland since 6th December last. We have had very little power to do anything. Our troops were withdrawn, and so on. Inasmuch as the execution of the decrees of the Courts and the general government of Ireland has been in the hands of the Provisional Government ever since December last, the Provisional Government of Ireland should pay the cost. Will the Chief Secretary give us an undertaking, when he is asking the British taxpayer to pay this sum now, that he will ask and obtain from the Provisional Government or their successors a proper proportion of the cost since the date when the Provisional Government came in operation?

§ Sir F. BANBURY
The Chief Secretary has given us a very interesting description of the office of some gentlemen who are described as something and Hanaper, but that is not really what we wanted to know. The point we really wanted to know the Chief Secretary has not answered. Those who have listened to the Debate understand the situation perfectly well. Under the Act of 1920 there were to be two Courts instead of one. 2186 That is one of the great economies which were to be made by that Act—two people to do the work which hitherto one had done. One Court was to be set up in Northern Ireland, and another was to be set up in Southern Ireland, but, as I understand it, according to Section 21 of the Act of 1920 Southern Ireland had to pay for its new Court. One of two things arises. Either the Act of 1920 is still in force, and the English Government are bound to see that it is carried out, in which case Section 21 applies, namely, that this Court should be paid for by the Irish people and not by the English, or the Act is not in force, in which case the Irish Free State should set up their own judicature. In neither case, as far as I can see, should we be compelled to find this sum of £67,000, which might go in payment of the National Debt. That is the point which the Chief Secretary has avoided. He has not dealt with it, beyond saying in an interruption that this is one of the Reserved Services. I have forgotten what the actual effect of the Reserved Services is, but I agree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for York (Sir J. Butcher) that while we do not wish to deprive anyone of his salary for work done, we should see that the people who are bound by law to pay that salary, pay it.
I am very much afraid that one result of this so-called Treaty, if it ever comes to anything at all, is that all the safeguards in regard to money will be wiped away, and that we shall find that the British taxpayer will have to pay for everything that these people are doing, and that any undertaking by them that at some future date they will make these payments good will be perfectly illusory. If I am wrong, and if my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip) is wrong, I should like to have that made clear to me.

§ Mr. E. HARMSWORTH
I agree with the remarks of the right hon. Baronet, and I shall be glad if the Chief Secretary will explain why the Vote has increased so much since last year. On the Vote dealing with prosecutions the right hon. Gentleman told us that the reason for the increase was the greater activity in the Courts. What is the reason for the increase in this Supplementary Estimate over the Estimate of 1920–21? It is an increase of nearly £100,000.

Colonel LAMBERT WARD
These Supplementary Estimates are rather confusing, and I should like to ask the Chief Secretary for an explanation. We have one item, "Miscellaneous Services (Ireland)" grant, under which a sum of over £1,100,000 is being granted to Ireland. I have a distinct recollection that we were informed that that amount has been provisionally granted to the Free State Government to enable them to carry on. Surely in that case they ought to be able to finance their own Supreme Court out of the amount granted without coming here and asking for grant after grant when they have been given a lump sum to enable them to carry on their services. I may be wrong in my assumption, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can explain the matter.

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
The hon. and gallant Member for North-West Hull (Colonel Lambert Ward) is under a misapprehension. The Supplementary Estimate to which he refers has not yet been before the Committee. Therefore, his remarks are not applicable to this Supplementary Estimate. I did not quite follow the argument of the hon. Member for Thanet (Mr. E. Harmsworth). There is no increase in this Vote. There is a decrease in the total Estimate. This is not the voting of fresh money, but a readjustment of old money for the same purposes for which the original Estimate was prepared and voted. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) urges that if the Free State of Ireland wants a Court it ought to pay for it. I quite agree, and it will pay for it, when the Free State Government takes over the administration of Southern Ireland; but we are in this interim period in which these Courts are Crown Courts, carrying on their duties from day to day, for the Provisional Government has not yet been clothed with the authority that will enable it to take over these Courts. It is impossible for me to say how much of this amount, which has already been voted, will commence to count for the government of the Free State of Ireland. Matters of finance between the British Government and the Government of the Free State will have to be cleared up, and there will be a great balance sheet. It is specified in the Treaty that the Free State has certain obligations in regard to the National Debt, 2188 and War pensions. There must be an account, and if the administration of justice is not taken into account I think it ought to be taken into account. I cannot play the rôle of prophet, but I agree with the right hon. Baronet in principle.

§ Sir J. BUTCHER
Will the right hon. Member reply to the point which I raised? As the Provisional Government have been de facto in power since December last they should pay a proper proportion of the cost of the Courts from the date when they entered de facto into power.

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
The Provisional Government has not yet been clothed with power.

§ Sir J. BUTCHER
It has de facto power.

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
It has not de facto or de jure power. Until by Orders in Council or in some other way by legislation of this House another Government is legally constituted in Southern Ireland, this House is responsible for carrying on these Courts. The judges are judges of the Crown, and the officials who serve them are officials who are carried on the Votes of this House until by legislation of this House a change is made.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his statement, and I think I am more or less arriving at a solution of the matter. The right hon. Gentleman made one mistake. He said that this money has been voted. If it had been voted there would be no necessity to come and ask for it now. What has been voted is a sum for a different object, and now he is asking us for authority to take the money already voted and devote it to a different object by transferring it to this Vote. The Act of 1920 is very clear. Section 8 (8) says: … 'Irish Services' in relation to Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland respectively are all public services in connection with the administration of civil government in Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland. In Section 21 (2) it says: Provision shall be made by the Parliaments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland for the cost within their respective jurisdictions of Irish services. 2189 I have shown from Sub-section (8) of Section 8 that Irish services are defined as: all public services in connection with the administration of civil government. and in Section 21 it is laid down that provision shall be made by the two Parliaments for the cost of Irish services. When we come to the reserve services, we find that Section 47 says: All matters relating to the Supreme Court of Southern Ireland and the Supreme Court of Northern Ireland and the High Court of Appeal for Ireland shall be reserved matters"— it does not say that we shall pay until the date of the Irish Union. When is that going to come about? It may be in 200 years, or it may be, which is more probable, never. Even if it were coming off shortly it does not deal with the fact or override the provision of the Sections which state that the Supreme Court of Southern Ireland and the other Courts attached to it shall be paid for by Southern Ireland. Even if such an ignorant person as myself were pleading before one of His Majesty's judges in the High Court, I should have been certain to have substantiated my argument upon that point. It is perfectly clear that Southern Ireland ought to pay this money. Why does it not pay? I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me that the real reason is that the Act of 1920 and the so-called Treaty have both been failures. The Act of 1920 is not in operation in Southern Ireland, although it has not been repealed. The Southern Irish have never recognised the Act of 1920, and, therefore, its provisions, though they have the force of law, cannot be carried out. As to the Irish Treaty, what we have heard to-day makes some of us think that possibly we shall never hear anything more of it. As to what will happen then, I do not know.
It is clear that the British taxpayer ought not to pay this money. Provision has been made that Southern Ireland should pay, both in the Act of 1920 and in the so-called Treaty of last December. I am inclined to think that, under the circumstances, we have to pay these people, and that it might be advisable to let the right hon. Gentleman have his Vote, but, on the other hand, I should have liked a Division in order to show the country the extraordinary anomalous 2190 position into which we have got through these various agreements in regard to Ireland. I doubt whether we shall ever be repaid. Even if the right hon. Gentleman went back to Ireland as Chief Secretary and undertook a great campaign such as that which he carried out in order to restore law and order, I doubt if he would get it. I understood him to say that an attempt will be made by the English Government at some future date to obtain repayment of the money. If I am right in that, I shall not press my reduction to a Division, but if I am wrong I shall press it. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can say yes or no.

§ Sir J. BUTCHER
I want to make my position clear. I suggest that inasmuch as the Provisional Government has been in power since December last under the direction of this Government, they ought to pay a proper proportion of the expense of running the country since that time. The Chief Secretary replied that the Provisional Government is neither a de facto nor a de jure Government. I agree that it is not a de jure Government. The Bill proposes to make it a de jure Government, but that it is a de facto Government is undoubted. If not, why was Dublin Castle surrendered, why were all the military barracks and the police barracks surrendered? Why have all the arms been handed over? The Colonial Secretary says that the arms and munitions have been handed over because the Provisional Government are a Government, and because the Government of Great Britain want to enable them to govern. Therefore, it is perfectly obvious that it is a de facto Government, and has been a de facto Government since December last, under the terms of the Treaty. Therefore, the Chief Secretary will see oil reconsideration that I was right in saying that they were a de facto Government. If they are, surely they are bound to repay the cost of running their Government, which they have now been carrying on since December last. For that period they should pay us a proper proportion of the salaries of these officials for whom the British taxpayers pay. If this is clear to my right hon. Friend he should give us an undertaking that he will, at any rate, demand from the Provisional Government this sum. I agree that constitutionally and financially 2191 the position is in a hopeless muddle, owing to the action of the Government, but on this point there appears to be no room for doubt.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
The Chief Secretary and I have discussed Estimates together on many occasions during his stormy period of office and my peaceful tenure of this bench. I know him well enough to know that he does not omit to answer questions through any wish to be discourteous, and either he has not the information asked for or he does not mean to give it. I hope that in this case he will answer the question which I put to him. The original amount voted was £67,000 for the Supreme Court for the whole of Ireland. You have taken out six populous, wealthy counties with a great deal of crime and civil litigation and a Court is set up again for the remaining counties of Ireland. There surely must be savings, as the Supreme Court is for a smaller and less populous area and crime is not confined wholly to the South. There ought to be savings and it is monstrous that the whole of the staff, the officials, scriveners, criers, clerks, assistant clerks and tipstaffs should continue to be paid by us. The Southern Court only ask for Apparently they are to have the whole of the money voted by this Parliament under the next Vote 18A. We are voting £19,837 new money. It seems to me peculiar that there has not been a division of this new money between the two Courts. I should have thought it much better to transfer some of the original money voted to the Northern Court and charge half to the Southern Court and half to the Northern Court. These obscure points leave me very suspicious. When I see a little sum like £10 on the Estimates and find that the House voted £67,000 I become very suspicious, and that feeling is increased when such a very able parliamentarian as the right hon. Gentleman says that this is not new money and that we need not discuss it. The questions asked by the hon. and learned Member for York (Sir J. Butcher) and the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury) reinforce my suspicions and I would be glad of an explanation.

§ Mr. E. HARMSWORTH
The hon. and learned Member for York (Sir J. Butcher) has raised an extremely important point. 2192 The Chief Secretary tells us on the Supplementary Estimate that we are responsible for law and order in Ireland and must pay for it, but I have always understood from the various speeches of the Colonial Secretary in this House that the Provisional Government are responsible for law and order in Southern Ireland at present. Whenever there was a communication regarding outrages in Ireland or kidnapping, the Colonial Secretary did not telegraph to the Viceroy, our representative, to say that the position was to be taken in hand, but to Mr. Collins, of the Provisional Government, thereby showing that Mr. Collins is responsible for law and order, and if we are withdrawing our troops, and so on, we cannot be responsible, and therefore why should we have to pay for keeping up the law and the processes of the law in Ireland? I understand the difficulties in which the Government are acting, but the point is extremely important and should be cleared up.

§ Mr. HOHLER
I would ask the Chief Secretary why he thinks that the Supreme Court in Ireland shall be a reserved service? Under Section 38 of the Government of Ireland Act the Supreme Court of Judicature in Ireland shall cease to exist, and there shall be established in Ireland a Court having supreme jurisdiction in Southern Ireland, to be called the Supreme Court of Judicature of Southern Ireland, and a Court having supreme jurisdiction in Northern Ireland, to be called the Supreme Court of Judicature of Northern Ireland, and a Court having appellate jurisdiction throughout the whole of Ireland, to be called the High Court of Appeal for Ireland. I would like my right hon. Friend to make quite clear his position that the payment of these judges of the Supreme Court is a reserved service. I do not follow it.

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
Undoubtedly the two new Supreme Courts are Reserved Services.

§ Mr. HOHLER
Where is it stated?

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
It is stated. There is no doubt about it. I would also remind my hon. Friend that, being reserved services, the expenses of the Courts would be recoverable by deduction from the Irish share of the taxes due to Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland. I cannot go into the question 2193 on this. Estimate, because it comes all on the next Estimate, but I shall do my best to clear up the points that have been raised. I hope that the Committee realise the serious condition of things in Ireland. I think that everybody does. I hope that they also realise that if there is one part of the Constitution in any part of the Empire which this House insures it is the judiciary, and that the judiciary, having been set up, as it has been, by law, cannot be altered except by another law, and therefore those public servants who draw salaries from the Votes of this House, under the legislation of this House, are certainly entitled to look to this House for a continuance of their salaries until the House, by legislation, alters the position. That is exactly the position.
If the Act of 1920 operated normally in the South, as it does in the North, there would be no question, because both Courts would have been reserved services, and the expenses of those Courts would have been recoverable by deduction of the Irish share of taxation both in the North and South. The Act applies to the North. It applies only in part to the South. Its operation is affected particularly by the Treaty which was approved by this House by a very large majority. The House, having approved that Treaty, another set of circumstances and a different situation are immediately created. This is a temporary and anomalous situation. It is to cover the period of that anomalous situation, up to the time when another judiciary, with the consent of this House, shall be established in Ireland, that this House must bear the expense of the Courts of the Crown. Therefore, during this period, unless the House wish to reverse their opinion in approving the Treaty, it is impossible in my judgment honourably to go back on the original Estimates by not voting the money for which I am now asking.
The Provisional Government in Ireland has great power. It is responsible for law and order in Southern Ireland, but it is not responsible for the course of the Crown, and it cannot be until by legislation a change is made in the status of the judiciary of Southern Ireland. The answer to the question, "Why does not the Provisional Government pay for these Courts?" is that we have not given the Provisional Government power to raise 2194 revenues and obtain money. They are carrying on by the Votes of this House. The question of a balance sheet which must be struck by the Government of Southern Ireland or the Irish Free State and the British Government is another great question. When that balance sheet will be struck and how much, if any, will be due to us it is impossible to say. As soon as the Constitution is set up in Southern Ireland all these expenses must automatically cease. It is the interval alone with which I am dealing. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) raised the point that there should be a saving. There is a saving on the original Estimate, because for that amount we have been able to set up two new separate Courts, the Supreme Court of Northern Ireland and the Supreme Court of Southern Ireland.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
Where is it shown?

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
On this Vote. The fact that this is a token Vote shows that no additional money is required. My contention is, that it represents a saving on the original Estimate, and a very great saving, that we have been able to set up both these Courts without asking the House for more money.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly point out where the saving is shown on the Estimate? It should be down in black and white.

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
I should have thought the mere fact that this was a token Vote showed that there was no additional expenditure.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
We should be getting some money back.

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
I wish we were, but if the Committee will permit me to go on with the next Estimate I will explain the point raised in connection with the sum of £19,837 about which the hon. and gallant Member has asked a question.

§ Sir D. MACLEAN
Is not this the position? Savings have been effected as the old régime stood, but those savings have been applied to the additional cost of the new régime, and so no real saving has been effected.

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
I accept that statement.

§ Mr. E. HARMSWORTH
I desire to have one matter cleared up. I do not object to Parliament paying for things which it controls, but I want to know whether at present we are in absolute control of the Courts in Ireland? We are obviously paying for them. The Supplementary Estimate is not the same as the original Estimate. Of course, when the original Estimate was presented, the Treaty had not been signed. The Treaty has been signed between the presentation of the original Estimate and the presentation of the Supplementary Estimate. I want to know if, since the Treaty was signed, we are actually in control of the Courts?

§ Mr. RAWLINSON
While I certainly would not vote against this Estimate because this liability bas been incurred and we cannot get out of it, I must, at the same time, protest against the view which the Chief Secretary has put before the Committee. No doubt the Courts are there and no doubt they are nominally under control, but when you come to Assize Courts in the South of Ireland, does the right hon. Gentleman really suggest that they are doing their work at the present time? Does he suggest that there are prosecutions for murder before His Majesty's Courts? Is it not a notorious fact to anybody who has been in Ireland that His Majesty's Courts are doing nothing at all in the way of keeping law and order, because the people do not go before them? Yet we are asked to pay and we shall have to pay. I think we shall have to pay, and therefore I do not propose to vote against the Chief Secretary getting this Estimate, but I venture to protest against the suggestion that we are getting value for our money, because, as a matter of fact, we certainly are not. As to the suggestion that the Provisional Government is responsible for law and order, I do not know whether they are or not, but the fact remains that these Courts are not really being used by the Irish people at all, and prosecutions for murder, and I am sorry to say there have been a number of cases of murder, are not being brought in these Courts at the present time.

Colonel NEWMAN
Before this matter is decided I should like to reinforce the 2196 views of the hon. Member who has last spoken. As one who knows something about the South of Ireland, I should like to find out exactly what is happening in regard to the King's Courts. Are the Judges going on circuit in connection with the Spring Assizes, and are the Grand Juries being summoned? Will everything go on as in pre-War times? We have not been informed on that point so far. Another matter I should like to impress upon the Chief Srecretary is that one of the chief duties of the County Court Judges and the Judges of the King's Bench Division was to assess claims for injury brought before them by those who had suffered either personally or in property. This was a very big thing, and under the 1920 Act it was directed that if the County Court Judge or superior Judge had more cases brought before him than he could deal with he should be empowered to get the assistance of a barrister of ten years' standing to act as a temporary Judge. The British Government has now come to an agreement with the Provisional Government that no more cases of this kind shall be heard in these Courts. No man or woman injured in his or her person or property is allowed to go before the King's Courts to make application and receive their awards. Thus one great slice is taken away from the duties of the Courts.

§ The CHAIRMAN
Is the hon. and gallant Member referring to the County Courts?

Colonel NEWMAN
I am referring to the High Courts. The appeal goes from the County Courts to the High Courts, and this appeal to the High Courts is equally forbidden under the arrangement I have mentioned. Therefore here is a big slice cut away from the duties of Irish Judges by an agreement between this Government and Mr. Collins' Government. That being so, I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman if we cannot have economy while quite admitting the great importance of carrying on these services?

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I think the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary has made the position quite clear, and it is this. The Act of 1920, which provided for the payment of new services by Southern Ireland, has not been accepted by the people of Southern Ireland and, conse- 2197 quently, though it is still on the Statute Book, it is practically a dead letter. Then the Government, having withdrawn all troops and all support of order from Ireland under the impression that a certain thing called a treaty was going to be accepted, and that treaty not having been accepted, and no Government having been set up in Ireland, we find ourselves in this extraordinary position. By the Statute passed in 1920 the Southern people are bound to pay for the Courts of Law, but as they have not accepted the Act they repudiate payment for the Courts of Law, and in addition they have rendered these Courts inoperative—at least so I gather from the remarks of hon. Members who have just spoken.

Colonel NEWMAN
I want to know if that is the case.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
If they sit and make decrees, they cannot carry out those decrees because they have no force to do so. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary himself has a great presence and a fine voice and he might make, either in this House or on the Bench in the Courts in Ireland very startling pronouncements and give great verdicts in favour of justice and the rights of property, but when that is done, who is to carry them out? Practically what we are doing is, wasting all this money by paying these gentlemen for a duty which, through no fault of their own, they cannot perform. If we are responsible for and are hound to pay the salaries of these judges and officials, there should be some force left in Ireland to enable them to carry out their decisions. If that is not so, then we should not be asked to pay. It all comes back to this. Is this House going to visit the sins of the Government upon the heads of these just people? I am rather inclined to think that we ought not to do so. The question then arises: How long are we going to be so tenderhearted to the Government? How long are we to allow this to go on? While I think it would be better not to go to a Division on this, on the other hand I hope that the Government will not think we are easily turned away from our own opinions, because we do not wish to visit the sins of the unjust upon the heads of the just. The result of going on in this way and the result of there being no order and no law is that we have to pay large sums of 2198 money to unfortunate people who are supposed to do something which no human being can possibly do in present circumstances. We ought to see that in future the Government themselves should remain responsible for these sins of commission.

§ Sir G. COLLINS
I waited until the last minute for the Chief Secretary for Ireland to rise in his place. He has explained to the Committee during the last hour that large savings were effected under his administration, but these, apparently, were according to the modern Government rendering and meaning of the word "savings." There is no real saving at all. It may be that in the coming campaign, which the Government is determined to wage throughout the country, they will try to delude the electors that they are going to save public money, but when they urge on the Committee that by their policy they are really saving money in this case, my right hon. Friend the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) points out there is no real saving in the administration of justice in Ireland, but only a transfer of expenditure from one Vote to another. If I understood the Chief Secretary correctly, he agreed with that statement. During this Debate the Chief Secretary has often told the Committee that if they would only allow him to get Vote 18 he would be able to explain on Vote 18A how these savings are effected. My only object in rising is to invite the Chief Secretary to explain to the Committee now how these savings are being effected.

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
I do not think that is exactly what I said. My point was that on the next Estimate dealing with Northern Ireland I would show how the amount of £19,837, referred to by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull, was accounted for. I have tried to show several times that out of the original Estimate granted by this House we have set up two courts in Ireland as contemplated under the 1920 Act, without asking the House for any more money, but simply by a readjustment. The hon. Members for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) and Finchley (Colonel Newman) raised again the question of how far the courts are functioning in Ireland. Nobody knows better than I 2199 do the great difficulty of the courts functioning especially in five or six counties of Southern Ireland, but they are doing their best, and the courts are more active than we anticipated. I do not think the officials—and remember we are now dealing only with officials—should be thrown over by this House because of the disturbed state of Ireland, especially in the southern counties. We are living in an intervening period, and all who have the interest of Ireland, North and South, at heart are most anxious to keep, as far as possible, the continuity of the courts of the Crown.

Colonel NEWMAN
I want to ask the Chief Secretary this question: Will the Spring Assizes be held in Cork next month?

§ Sir H. GREENWOOD
I cannot say, but I hope they will be. My hon. and gallant Friend knows there is a great amount of crime and a great amount of civil litigation which all parties in Ireland are agreed can be tried by the Courts of the Crown, and it is only when you get into the domain of what are called political offences that you get controversy, but however well or ill the courts are functioning, they look to this House for support and for their emoluments.

§ Mr. RAWLINSON
Of course, this House does not desire that these officials should not be paid, but all the same we are not getting value for our money here, and it is no good the right hon. Gentleman, with his coloured version of the matter, suggesting that we are. There is not the slightest doubt that crime is going unpunished broadcast in the South of Ireland—every form of crime—and that the King's Courts are not effective, as they are in England and elsewhere, in the suppression of crime. As a matter of fact, we are paying money and getting absolutely nothing in return.