§ Resolution reported,
§ "That a sum, not exceeding £31,700, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1914, for Houses of Parliament Buildings."
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ Sir F. BANBURYI beg to move to reduce the Vote by £500.
I do this partly because I want to obtain a little information from the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wedgwood Benn), who is in charge of the Vote. I had a conversation with him yesterday afternoon on this subject, and I told him that I should probably move a reduction. The reason I do so is the unsatisfactory state of the ventilation in the House. I spoke on this subject when the Vote was before Committee, and pointed out that the ventilation of the House was not as good as it might be. The hon. Gentleman was kind enough to say that he would do his best to improve the ventilation. He told me afterwards that he had made some arrangement by which the cold air which came in, and 1976 which made it very difficult to sit here for any length of time with any degree of comfort, should be obviated. I understand that the obviation, if it has been better, which I do not altogether admit, of the discomfort in my case renders the discomfort greater on hon. Members who sit behind me. At first, with the natural selfishness of human nature, I was inclined to think as long as I was comfortable it did not matter much what happened to hon. Members behind me, but on further reflection I came to see that that was a selfish view, and that what really ought to be done was some alteration in the system of ventilation. I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the hon. Gentleman for the courteous way in which he has met me on this point. I admit there has been some slight improvement, but it must be remembered that in the warmer weather it is very much easier to ventilate the House in the way it is done than in the cold weather, and therefore the improvement that has been made has been due to the change of season.
Very large sums of money have been spent on this method of ventilation, and we do not deny that the hon. Gentleman and his predecessor have done their best to bring about the most scientific way of ventilation, but still the fact remains that those scientific ways are by no means comfortable to those who have to endure them. The old-fashioned ways of open windows and open fireplaces or heating by hot air are far more comfortable than sitting on the top of a sort of trellis work and having the air pumped up all around. I do not know whether it is quite possible to alter the whole system, but I think it is possible that something of this sort might be done, that the air, instead of coming up through a grille, should come in through ventilating shafts rather higher in the Chamber, so that you would get the cool air about your heads, which is the place you want it, and the warmer air about the feet, which is also the place where you want it, whereas the reverse takes place at the present moment. I really do think this is a serious question, because some of us, and I myself, spend a great portion of time in the Chamber itself, and, therefore, I naturally take an interest in having the place rendered as comfortable as possible. Those of us who endeavour to take a share in the Debates of the House are, I submit, entitled to some little consideration. I trust the hon. Gentleman will do his best to listen to my 1977 suggestion and devise some method by which this may be altered.
§ Sir J. D. REESI had intended also to move the Amendment of which I had given notice. I wish to say how pleased I am at the action of the hon. Gentleman in having the new staircase made to the Terrace, for which I think he is to be immensely congratulated. Now that it is completed it makes one wonder that nobody did it before. There is an item for a passenger lift in which I happen to be much interested and in which I am sure others are also interested. There is provision for £2,000 for a lift to be spent in the current year. Is that a lift from the Members' Cloak Room to the level of the Chamber, because that, I submit, is what is wanted? Frequent walking or standing about these corridors and lobbies is very apt to impair the efficacy of the strongest Member's legs, and those who least expect to require a lift may find after a time that they want that which they scorn so very highly at present. With reference to the item for the alterations in connection with the Private Bill Office, I do not know what they are. Is the lift affected in any way which goes from the level on which we now stand to the Committee Room? Could that lift be kept going somewhat later, because it is a very long and troublesome flight of stairs? Coming to Item B (Maintenance and Repairs), there is the provision of £105 for winding and regulating the great clock. It is very important that that clock should keep very good time, but the sum of £105 seems to me to be very large for winding a clock. Surely it must refer to something else besides winding and regulating. As to the total of £10,800 for internal and external repairs, I understand that that refers to the whole Palace of Westminster. If so, it is a very moderate provision, especially when compared with the £27,000 which is provided for two or three of the Royal palaces. Under heading (D), what is the extension of the electric light for which £200 is provided? It is a very small amount, but I wish that no more money should be spent on electric light extension. If it is to provide for any new lights, will the hon. Gentleman take into consideration the propriety of extending the use of the excellent shaded globes of the electric lights in the Member's Lobby? There is about the electric light a peculiarly aggressive and odious quality which, when the naked wire catches the eye, sends a thrill through the head and out at the other side, which 1978 is very bad for legislators and everybody else. Will the hon. Gentleman provide shade covers for the bulb holding the wire, which is the part really requiring them?
Under the heading of furniture, there is a sum for mats. Does that include the mats for this Chamber? 1f so, are those mats frequently changed? For some preposterous reason we are doomed in this Chamber to have the air filtered through the floor instead of coming in from Heaven as it ought to do. Are the mats upon which Members walk, and upon which dust and dirt must collect, frequently changed, so that they may not impair the efficiency of the whole system of ventilation? On the question of ventilation in general, I have several times addressed the hon. Gentleman, and he has always dealt courteously with my representations. A request has been made that a Committee should be appointed to consider this question. The present would be a very convenient opportunity for the hon. Member to inform the House whether that Committee has been or will be appointed, and, how the matter stands. If anybody—even those who do not, as the hon. Baronet and I do, object to the whole system of ventilation, thinking that we ought to get fresh air from above, and not foul air from below—really wants to test the present system, let him sit, as I have often had to do, upon the mat in the gangway, and he will find a stream of air coming through which is very unpleasant. I think that that is a fair test, because, if we are not sitting in the gangway, we are not far off. I can claim some right to speak on this question, because, like the hon. Baronet, I spend a great deal of time in the precincts of the House. It is no use going to France or anywhere else for a holiday; the moment you come back you have a headache caused by the system of ventilation and the unshaded and unmitigated cruelty of the electric lights.
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD BENN (Lord of the Treasury)The lift for which provision is made in the Estimates is to be constructed in the Library Corridor, and will rise from the Terrace level to the level of the Committee Rooms Corridor, and possibly to the level of the floor higher. We have gone into the question very carefully, and this is the only place in the whole building where we can get a lift connecting all the floors. It is very desirable to have a ready means of access to the Committee Rooms Corridor from the Terrace, particularly for ladies who desire to go from the Dining 1979 Room to the Ladies' Gallery. This is quite a separate question from the provision of a lift from the Members' Cloakroom. That question has been considered, but for the time being, no decision to construct it has been come to. I do not deny that it would be very desirable to have a lift from the Members' Cloakroom to the level of this Lobby, but we thought on the whole it was better to construct the other lift first.
§ Sir J. D. REESCould not the hon. Gentleman make it a case of concurrent endowment, and give us both?
§ Mr. BENNIt is too late to ask Parliament to give us any more money for this purpose. We are making considerable expenditure this year on these buildings. As regards the stairs, I am grateful for what has been said. I hope hon. Members will exercise a little patience for a few days until we can throw the stairs open. The workmen are at work on them all day, and we are anxious to keep them closed until they are finished, so as to get the job done. If we opened them now it would mean more delay later in the year. As regards the clock, the expenditure of £105 is under a contract which, I believe, covers renewals as well as the winding. When he remembers how big the clock is, and the amount of regular attendance required, I think the hon. Member will agree that 100 guineas is not an excessive charge.
§ Colonel YATEDoes that cover all the clocks in the building?
§ Mr. BENNNo. Simply the clock in the Tower. The money for extending the electric light is not for any specific extension, but for the general extension throughout the building. There are a large number of workshops and all sorts of departments throughout this vast building, and from year to year we extend the electric light and do away with gas. As regards shading the electric light, we have put some shaded globes on the chandeliers in the Members' Lobby, and I am glad that hon. Members appreciate the change. If the hon. Gentleman opposite will tell us where else he thinks the same thing might be done, we shall be very glad to replace the existing globes by shaded globes of the kind desired. The provision for replacing carpets applies, not only to this Chamber, but to carpets and mats generally throughout the building. I do not know whether the carpet in this Chamber has been replaced recently, but the carpets 1980 and mats are regularly cleaned by means of vacuum cleaners, and every care is taken to see that they are kept clean.
§ Sir J. D. REESHow often is there a new one?
§ Mr. BENNHow often? I suppose a new one is purchased when the old one is worn out. I do not think that the House of Commons would wish the Office of Works to go to unnecessary expense and to buy a new carpet when it was not clear that the old one was useless. As regards the ventilation, which is, of course, an old topic, I am glad the hon. Baronet thinks he notices some improvement, at any rate in the particular part of the House from which he addresses his questions. What we have done is to put underneath the seats—that is some of the seats—a sort of wire gauze with the object of preventing a great rush of air upwards. It is true that inasmuch as the same quantity of air is passed through the floor, a greater quantity will come through under other places in consequence of the lesser quantity coming through under the seat where the hon. Baronet sits. I have not had any complaints from anyone else, so I propose to go on and give the hon. Baronet the shelter that he evidently so much appreciates. It is intended to appoint the Committee to which reference has been made, and the only reason for delay is that hon. Members have been very occupied with other business. The Committee, when it is set up, will afford an opportunity of dealing with the various questions raised, such as whether the ventilation should be from below or above. I would repeat here what I said before, that the hon. Baronet the Member for Nottingham is greatly mistaken if he supposes that, a purer air would be got by having a shaft bringing the air down than is secured at present by taking the air from the terrace. I have mentioned this in previous Debates. We have had tests made. The quality of the air at the top of the Victoria Tower is much inferior to the quality of the air which we draw in from the terrace through the special screen apparatus which I have described. Anyway, all these matters can be properly laid before the Committee when it is set up, and I have no doubt will be satisfactorly disposed of.
§ Question put, "That £31,700 stand part of the Question."
§ The House divided: Ayes 229; Noes, 54.
1983| Division No. 1113.] | AYES. | [2.47 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Nuttall, Harry |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Hazleton, Richard | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Alden, Percy | Hemmerde, Edward George | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Henry, Sir Charles | O'Dowd, John |
| Arnold, Sydney | Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Higham, John Sharp | O'Malley, William |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Hogg, David C. | O'Shee, James John |
| Beale, Sir William Phipson | Hogge, James Myles | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Holt, Richard Durning | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Boland, John Plus | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Pointer, Joseph |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Jardine, Sir John (Roxburgh) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Brady, P. J. | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Jone, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Radford, G. H. |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Jones, W. S. Glyn-(T. H'mts., Stepney) | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Jowett, Frederick William | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Joyce, Michael | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Keating, Matthew | Reddy, M. |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Kelly, Edward | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kilbride, Denis | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Clough, William | King, J. | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lardner, James C. R. | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Crooks, William | Leach, Charles | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Crumley, Patrick | Levy, Sir Maurice | Rowlands, James |
| Cullinan, J. | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Delany, William | Lundon, Thomas | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Lyell, Charles Henry | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Lynch, A. A. | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Macdonald, J. R. (Leichester) | Sheehy, David |
| Dillon, John | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Shortt, Edward |
| Donelan, Captain A. | McGhee, Richard | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Doris, William | Maclean, Donald | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Duffy, William J. | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Sutton, John E. |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Taylor, Theodore C. Radcliffe) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | M'Curdy, Charles Albert | Tennant, Harold John |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Manfield, Harry | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Falconer, J. | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Wardle, George J. |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Meagher, Michael | Waring, Walter |
| Ffrench, Peter | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Field, William | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Menzies, Sir Walter | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Molloy, M. | Webb, H. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Gill, A. H. | Money, L. G. Chiozza | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Ginnell, Laurence | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Mooney, John J. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Glanville, Harold James | Morgan, George Hay | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Morrell, Phillip | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Goldstone Frank | Morison, Hector | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Greig, Colonel J. W. | Muldoon, John | |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Neilson, Francis | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Nolan, Joseph | Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Hackett, J. |
| NOES. | ||
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Butcher, J. G. |
| Anson, Bt. Hon. Sir William R. | Byton, James | Cassel, Felix |
| Baird, J. L. | Bridgeman, W. Clive | Cator, John |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon, J, A. (Worc'r) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Stanier, Beville |
| Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred | Locker-Lampson, G.(Salisbury) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Gilmour, Captain John | Magnus, Sir Philip | Walker, Colonel William Hall |
| Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Weigall, Captain A. G. |
| Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Nield, Herbert | Wintertion, Earl |
| Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Peel, Lieut-Colonel R.F. | Yate, Colonel Charles Edward |
| Hibbert, Sir Henry F. | Perkins, Walter F. | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | Peto, Basil Edward | Younger, Sir George |
| Hunter, Sir C. R. | Rees, Sir J.D. | |
| Jessel, Captain H. M. | Remnant, James Farquharson | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Rolleston, Sir John | F. Banbury and Lord A. Thynne. |
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.