§ (1) The Commissioners shall record particulars of all valuations, apportionments, re-apportionments, and assessments made 1475 by them under this Part of this Act, and of any deductions allowed in determining any value, and of the amount of any duty paid under this Part of this Act in respect of any land.
§ (2) The Commissioners shall furnish to any person interested in any land, or to any person authorised by any person so interested, on his application and on payment of such fee, not exceeding two shillings and sixpence, as the Commissioners may fix with the approval of the Treasury, copies of any particulars so recorded by them relating to the land, certified, if required, by a Secretary or Assistant Secretary to the Commissioners.
§ Mr. CLAVELL SALTERI want to take the opportunity of the second reading of this Clause to ask a question or two about this valuation. It is a very large matter indeed. There never was before such a cost as will attend this valuation, nor was there ever before in the history of the world such a document as this valuation will be if ever it is completed. Those who perhaps in an official position, have had to do with the valuation of land on a microscopic scale may form some idea of what this portentous work will be like. I should be glad to know if the Government have formed any kind of estimate of how many separate valuations there will be. Every piece of land separately occupied in the United Kingdom is to be separately valued. Have the Government formed any estimate of the original number of areas or items which would appear in this record? Have they formed any idea as to the length of time which the 1909 register will take to compile, and have they formed any idea of the cost which it will involve? I see they do not either in this Clause or any other part of the Bill give the Commissioners any power to revise this register. It must be obvious to everyone who has thought about the matter at all that, as soon as the register is completed, there will set in a very rapid process of sub-division. We shall start with many millions of separate items, and we have not been given any information as to the form in which this register is to be kept.
The CHAIRMANI do not think that what the hon. Member is now saying is relevant to this Clause. This is a Clause which imposes upon the Commissioners the duty of keeping a record. It is a perfectly proper question to ask what statistical material they will have to deal 1476 with, but I think the other matters to which the hon. Member referred are outside the scope of the Clause.
§ Mr. CLAVELL SALTERMay I ask if the Government propose to give the Commissioners any power to revise this register from time to time, and to aggregate into manageable units the enormous number of subdivided areas which will necessarily appear? Is any power of aggregation or revision to be given to the Commissioners at all?
The CHAIRMANThe question of the powers of the Commissioners does not arise under this Clause. The question of the statistical means of keeping the records does arise.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Samuel Evans)The object of this Clause does not comprise any of the matters referred to by the hon. Gentleman. The object of the first Sub-section is to place an obligation upon the Commissioners to keep a record of all particulars of all valuations, apportionments, re-apportionments, and assessments made by them under this Part of this Act, and of any deductions allowed in determining any value, and of the amount of any duty paid under this Part of this Act in respect of any land. The second Sub-Clause contains a very reasonable proposal, namely, that the Commissioners are bound, on the payment of a very small fee indeed, to give any information in their power to any person interested in the land. I should imagine the Commissioners will bring common-sense to bear upon the arrangement of their books containing these particulars in the form of a register, so that it will be convenient to find out any particular item.
§ Mr. CLAVELL SALTERI asked a definite question whether the Government have formed any estimate of the number of items, the cost, and the length of time which it will take to prepare the register?
§ Sir SAMUEL EVANSI understood those were matters which were ruled as being outside the Clause.
The CHAIRMANThe number of settlements does arise, because that is part of the statistical matter the Commissioners have to keep; but the cost and the time I do not think do arise.
§ Sir SAMUEL EVANSThe number of valuations will equal the number of occupations the Commissioners have to separately value.
§ Mr. CLAVELL SALTERThe number may be more. Any person may sub-divide, and the Commissioners may sub-divide.
§ Sir SAMUEL EVANSIn the first place, it must be that number. Whatever the number may be, the Commissioners have to keep an account of the valuations and all the particulars on the register.
§ Sir E. CARSONThere has been an estimate made by the Government that the cost will be £2,000,000, so I suppose they could probably give us an approximate idea of the number of interests they are going to value. That is a very important matter.
§ Sir SAMUEL EVANSWe have not the information here at the present moment, and I am not able now to communicate with anybody who has got it. I have no doubt there are some figures.
§ Mr. STUART-WORTLEYIt appears to me that these records should be treated as confidential. I do not think there is anything in the Clause which binds the Commissioners to refuse information to persons not interested in the land, but will instructions be issued, as a matter of administrative practice, to prevent curious persons not entitled to the information learning about the private affairs of their neighbours?
§ Sir SAMUEL EVANSThe Clause provides that the Commissioners shall furnish information to any persons interested in the land or any person authorised by any person so interested. It is not so wide a power as that given in the case of a limited company. Anybody, I think, can on the payment of 1s. see the shareholders' list, and the other matters which have to be filed in Somerset House in connection with the affairs of limited companies. I have no doubt instructions will be given to the Commissioners that they are not to allow this register to be used for the mere purpose of satisfying the curiosity of people who have no interest in the land. They are only compelled to give information to persons interested, their agents, or solicitors authorised by them, and that implies they are not to give information except to such persons as are comprised in this category.
§ Sir E. CARSONThis is a point of considerable importance, and the learned Solicitor-General will see that, supposing a man is trying to dispose of his interest in certain land, it might be open to the intending purchaser to see the valuation which had been put upon it. I suggest 1478 that these records should not be available to parsons other than those actually interested in the land, and, therefore, I will later on propose to introduce after "interested" the words "to any other person." It is quite true there is a right in the person interested to ask the information, but we want to prevent the Commissioners giving it to any other persons. It may be the case that in connection with public companies there is a statutory right to inspect the share lists, but we want to prevent the Commissioners in this case giving information to persons other than those authorised under the Act to receive it. Take the case of a man who wants to sell his property and to get a good price for it. He is in negotiation with a purchaser. I want to know whether the person who is negotiating to buy is to be deemed a person "interested," and, as such, would he be able to get this information from the Commissioners in any way?
§ Sir SAMUEL EVANSI think the person who is negotiating for the possible purchase of the land, until he enters into a contract, is not a person interested in the land within the meaning of this Clause, but, immediately he enters into a contract, although the conveyance may not be completed, clearly he does become a person interested, and, as such, he would be entitled to ask for this information. But the phrase "interested in the land" does not cover the case of a man who is simply curious to see what the value is. It is only if he has a legal or equitable interest in the land that he will have a right to obtain this information from the Commissioners.
§ Sir E. CARSON then moved, in Subsection (2), after the word "interested" ["any person so interested"], to insert the words "and to no other person." My object is simply to prevent the Commissioners having the right to furnish information to others than those interested in the land.
§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGEI cannot accept those words. I am not complaining that they do not appear on the Paper, but I hold that, certainly, in a case of compulsory purchase, the Commissioners ought to be in a position to supply information of this kind.
§ Sir E. CARSONWhy?
§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGEIf it is the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to exclude cases of that kind, I object to the 1479 Amendment on its merits. If a municipality is buying land for a public improvement, and there is an arbitration to decide the value of the land, I hold that the municipality is entitled to know upon what value taxation has been paid. Really one reason why I do not accept the Amendment is that I am afraid it is intended to exclude cases of that kind.
§ Sir E. CARSONBut in the case of the compulsory purchase of land you ought to fix the price according to the market value at the moment. I do not consider the right hon. Gentleman has given me an answer to my question. The view expressed by the Solicitor-General does not accord with that of the right hon. Gentleman.
§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGEBut I noticed the right hon. and learned Gentleman did not quite accept that view.
§ Sir E. CARSONThat does not matter.
§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGEI think it makes a serious difference. When two Gentlemen so learned in the law disagree on so important a matter I, as a simple, uninstructed layman, must fall back on the words of the Clause and allow the Commissioners perfect freedom to furnish the municipalities with the information.
§ Sir E. CARSONOr the ordinary individual?
§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGEIf it is a case of compulsory purchase I think the State valuation should be at the disposal of the parties. It is a proof of what the individual himself thought was the value of his land at the time. Suppose he put that value at £1,000, and paid upon that? The
§ Commissioners may have thought that the value was £1,500, but the matter was fought out, and the owner successfully demonstrated that his view of the value was the correct one. Then a municipality came along and wanted to buy the land for the purpose of waterworks or housing, and the owner at once declared it to be worth £3,000! I think it is perfectly right that the municipality should be in a position to ask for a certificate from the Commissioners of the value upon which the owner has chosen to pay taxation. Under these circumstances I cannot accept this Amendment.
§ Sir E. CARSONI look upon this as extremely unfortunate. This power may be very grossly used by this system of officialdom which you are setting up in relation to all business arising under this Bill. I cannot see what right a person negotiating with another for the purchase of land has to obtain this information. He should get his information elsewhere. This valuation is kept for an entirely different purpose, and it should be only at the disposal of those who are immediately interested. I am afraid it may lead to great abuse. When one raises points of this nature the Chancellor of the Exchequer always falls back on the case of municipal bodies acquiring land under their compulsory powers, and, if this information is to be available in cases like this, it may render it almost intolerable, because anybody may be able to get the information out of the Commissioners.
§ Question put, "That the words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 50; Noes, 186.
1481| Division No. 750.] | AYES. | [6.42 p.m. |
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. P. | Fletcher, J. S. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Gardner, Ernest | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) | Morrison-Bell, Captain |
| Balcarres, Lord | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gretton, John | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) | Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) | Pretyman, E. G. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Haddock, George B. | Randles, Sir John Scurrah |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Hamilton, Marquess of | Ratcliff, Major R. F. |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Renwick, George |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Helmsley, Viscount | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Bull, Sir Wiliam James | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert | Ropner, Col. Sir Robert |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Hills, J. W. | Rutherford, Watson (Liverpool) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Hunt, Rowland | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Keswick, William | Starkey, John R. |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Kimber, Sir Henry | Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) |
| Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham) | King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) | Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.). |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Lambton, Hon. Frederick William | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lockwood, Rt.-Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Younger, George |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | M'Arthur, Charles | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Viscount |
| Fell, Arthur | Magnus, Sir Philip | Valentia and Mr. Pike Pease. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, W. (Cork, N. E.) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Hall, Frederick | Philippe, Owen C. (Pembroke) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Pointer, J. |
| Alden, Percy | Hart-Davies, T. | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Gloucester) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Hazel, Dr. A. E. W. | Reddy, M. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Hazleton, Richard | Rees, J. D. |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Healy, Timothy Michael | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Hedges, A. Paget | Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Helme, Norval Watson | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Barker, Sir John | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Barnard, E. B. | Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) | Higham, John Sharp | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Beauchamp, E. | Hobart, Sir Robert | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Bennett, E. N. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Hodge, John | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) | Holland, Sir William Henry | Rogers, F. E. Newman |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Horniman, Emslie John | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. |
| Branch, James | Hyde, Clarendon G. | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Brigg, John | Illingworth, Percy H. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Brodie, H. C. | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Jackson, R. S. | Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jenkins, J. | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Seddon, J. |
| Byles, William Pollard | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Shackleton, David James |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight | Joyce, Michael | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Clough, William | Keating, M. | Silcock, Thomas Bali |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Snowden, P. |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Laidlaw, Robert | Steadman, W. C. |
| Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) | Lehmann, R. C. | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Crossley, William J. | Levy, Sir Maurice | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Cullinan, J. | Lewis, John Herbert | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Dalziel, Sir James Henry | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Toulmin, George |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Lundon, T. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lupton, Arnold | Verney, F. W. |
| Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Vivian, Henry |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Macpherson, J. T. | Wadsworth, J. |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) |
| Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) | MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) | Wardle, George J. |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | M'Callum, John M. | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Elibank, Master of | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Essex, R. W. | Mallet, Charles E. | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Massie, J. | White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) |
| Evans, Sir S. T. | Masterman, C. F. G. | White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Mond, A. | Wiles, Thomas |
| Ferens, T. R. | Morse, L. L. | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Muldoon, John | Williamson, Sir A. |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Myer, Horatio | Wills, Arthur Walters |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John | Nolan, Joseph | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Glendinning, R. G. | Nuttall, Harry | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and Captain Norton. |
| Gulland, John W. | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
Bill read the third time, and passed.
§ Clause added to the Bill.
§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE moved, after Clause 41, to insert the following:—