§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ [Mr. HENRY HOBHOUSE in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1,
§ SIR CHARLES DILKE (Gloucestershire, Forest of Dean)said he did not propose to divide the Committee, but he wished to state that he was one of those who did not believe in the reconstitution of the Naval Volunteers. A most competent Committee had inquired 736 into the subject, and their recommendation was one which, of course, would carry the greatest possible weight. He did not believe in the applicability of the Volunteer principle to service in the Fleet, and the kind of service to be required should be made known. There were certain very exceptional cases where Volunteers might be used with advantage for the Fleet. One case was that of Jersey, where there was ground for the existence of a limited Volunteer force of this kind. Language had been used in the Press, and perhaps by some hon. Members on a former stage of this Bill, to the effect that they might hope for a very large body of Volunteers to serve in the Fleet in time of war, but he thought that was an idle anticipation.
§ Clauses 1, 2, and 3 agreed to.
§ Clause 4,
§ SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid this was the short service clause, and was the most important new departure made in connection with the Navy in modern times. It introduced a principle which he approved, but the application of which had hitherto been resisted at the Admiralty. The Committee ought to know how far it was intended to apply it now.
THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARNOLD FOUSTER, Belfast, W.)said he was glad that the principle was approved by he right hon. Baronet. The question of the number of short service men to be employed would not arise for many years. It must be a long time before any substantial proportion of the crews could be made up of these men. He really did not think it was necessary to go beyond the present intention of the Admiralty, which was to take a fourth of the ordinary seamen and A. B.s, and one-sixth trained men of the stokers, exclusive of petty officers, from this source. These men would not be in any sense Volunteers, because they would have five years experience of the sea.
§ Clauses 4, 5 and 6 agreed to.
737
§
MR. CALDWELL moved the following new clause—
All regulations made in pursuance of this Act shall be laid before Parliament as soon as practicable after they are made, if Parliament be then sitting, and, if Parliament be not sitting, as soon as practicable after the beginning of the next session of Parliament.
He supposed there would be no objection to this clause. What he proposed was in accordance with the practice of Parliament in all cases where the ordinary law was departed from. Similar provision was made in the Militia Act, the Army Act, and the Naval Act.
§ MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERdeclined to accept the clause. The precedents which the hon. Member had quoted were not applicable to the present case. There was no question in the Bill of giving powers to the Secretary of State to modify existing Acts of Parliament. This was new legislation, and the whole of the facts would come before the House in the ordinary way.
§ SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he was a strong supporter of the Admiralty, but he confessed he was not persuaded by the arguments of the hon. Gentleman at the present time. The short service provisions would be governed by
§ Admiralty regulations, and he saw no reason for opposing the clause.
§ MR. CALDWELLsaid that what Parliament was asked to do was to give the Admiralty carte blanche. They were asked to empower the Admiralty to create a new force, and to make whatever regulations they thought fit. Obviously, the regulations made in pursuance of the Act ought to be placed before Parliament so that they might know what was being done.
§ MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERsaid that the hon. Gentleman made a mistake. There was no such obligation in regard to the Naval Volunteers, and there was no such obligation in regard to the Naval Reserve.
§ SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he wished again to impress on the hon. Gentleman that this clause had nothing to do with the Naval Volunteers. The case for the proposed new Clause rested on what was contained in Clause 4 of the Bill.
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That the clause be read a second time."
§ Committee divided:—Ayes, 76; Noes, 190. (Division List, No. 48.)
739| AYES. | ||
| Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) | Jacoby, James Alfred | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud) | Joicey, Sir James | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Asher, Alexander | Kearley, Hudson E. | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Labouchere, Henry | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Bell, Richard | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R. (Northants |
| Brigg, John | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Leng, Sir John | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh) | Levy, Maurice | Taylor, Theo. C. (Radcliffe) |
| Burns, John | Lewis, John Herbert | Tennant, Harold John |
| Burt, Thomas | Lloyd-George, David | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings) |
| Crooks, William | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | Toulmin, George |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Morley, Rt. Hon. John (Durham) | Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham) | Wason, E. (Clackmannan) |
| Dunn, Sir William | Partington, Oswald | Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone) | Paulton, James Mellor | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.) |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. | Perks, Robert William | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Rea, Russell | Williams, O. (Merioneth) |
| Grant, Corrie | Redmond, William (Clare) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- | Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries | Yoxhall, James Henry |
| Hayter, Rt. Hon Sir Arthur D. | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) | |
| Holland, Sir William Henry | Robson, William Snowdon | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Samuel, Herbt. L. (Cleveland) | Mr. Caldwell and Mr. Lough. |
| Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles | |
| Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. | Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon | Myers, William Henry |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Newdegate, Francis A. N. |
| Allhusen, Aug. Henry Eden | Flower, Ernest | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Forster, Henry William | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Fyler, John Arthur | Peel, Hn. Wm. R. Wellesley |
| Arrol, Sir William | Galloway, William Johnson | Percy, Earl |
| Atkinson, Right Hon. John | Gardner, Ernest | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Garfit, William | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Austin, Sir John | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Gordan, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nrn | Purvis, Robert |
| Bain Colonel James Robert | Gore, Hn. G R C. Ormsby- (Salop | Pym, C. Guy |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hain, Edward | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Robertson, H. (Hackney) |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. | Hambro, Charles Eric | Robinson, Brooke |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Hamilton, Rt. Hn Ld. G. (Midx | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Hamilton, Marg. of (Londondy | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robt. Wm. | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Bigwood, James | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Russell, T. W. |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Hatch, Ernest Frederick G. | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isle of Wight |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasgow | Heath, Arthur H. (Hantey) | Seton-Karr, Sir Henry |
| Campbell, J. H. M (Dublin Univ. | Heath, James (Stafford, N. W. | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Cavendish, V C W (Derbysh.) | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hogg, Lindsay | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon J. (Birm | Hope, J. F. (Sheff, B'tside) | Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside |
| Chapman, Edward | Hoult, Joseph | Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Howard, J. (Midd., Tott'ham | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset) |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Kimber, Henry | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Knowles, Lees | Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.) | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lawrence, Sir Jos. (Monm'th) | Sturt, Hn. Humphry Napier |
| Cox, Irwin Edwd. Bainbridge | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Cranborne, Lord | Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S. | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Thomas, J. A. (Glam., Gower) |
| Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) | Lookwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Macdona, John Cumming | Valentia, Viscount |
| Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Denny, Colonel | M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Malcolm, Ian | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon | Manners, Lord Cecil | Webb, Col. William George |
| Douglas Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Markham, Arthur Basil | Whiteley, H. A. Ashton-und-Lyne |
| Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.) |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N. |
| Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart | Milvain, Thomas | Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.) |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Mitchell, William (Burnley) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Faber, E. B. (Hants, W.) | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B Stuart |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Morrell, George Herbert | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r | Mount, William Arthur | |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Muntz, Sir Philip A. | Sir Alexander Acland- |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Murray, Rt. Hn A. Graham (Bute | Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
Bill read a second time, and committed.
§ Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time to-morrow.