§ As amended (by the Standing Committee), considered.
§ *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS,) Kent, St. Augustine'ssaid that although they did not all agree as 327 to the details of this measure they were all agreed as to the importance which attached to the Bill and were most anxious to see it passed into law. Unfortunately he had been unable to take part in the discussions before the Grand Committee upstairs and he desired to thank the Under-Secretary of State for acting in his stead. He begged to move the first new clause which stood in his name on the Paper. The object of the clause was to exempt industrial and reformatory schools from the operation of this Act. In all such schools the work was controlled by rules made by a responsible board of management with the sanction of the Home Office and the schools were under the supervision of the Home Office inspector. He did not think there could be any objection offered to this clause, and he hoped the House would allow it to be read a second time.
§
New Clause (Saving for industrial and other schools):
Nothing in this Act or in any by-law made there under shall apply to the exercise of manual labour by any child under order of detention in a certified industrial or reformatory school, or by any child while receiving instruction in manual labour in any school."—(Mr. Secretary Akers Douglas.)
§ Brought up, and read the first time. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."
§ *SIR FRANCIS POWELL (Wigan)said he presumed that no profit would be derived from the labour.
§ *MR. AKERS DOUGLASCertainly there will.
§ *MR. TENNANT (Berwickshire)said the hon. Baronet who had just put a question to the Home Secretary apparently was not aware that not only was there a profit derived from the labour, but there was an enormous profit. He did not wish to oppose the Second Reading of the clause if the right hon. Gentleman would allow him to insert the words of which he had given him private notice. He desired to move "in line 2 of the Home Secretary's new clause after the word 'labour' to insert the words 'during a portion of the 328 school hours.'" The reason he moved those words was that if they were going to allow the children in industrial and reformatory schools to remain outside the operation of this Bill, at least they ought to limit it to the time during which they were in the school, and not make it applicable to the whole of their lives.
§ SIR JOHN GORSTupon a point of order asked if the Second Reading of the Clause ought not to be disposed of before the Amendment.
§ MR. SPEAKERYes, that is so.
§ SIR JOHN GORST (Cambridge University)said he hoped the Home Secretary would not press this clause. He did not think he had adduced any satisfactory reason why these poor children should be deprived of the protection which the Bill gave to all other children. Industrial and reformatory schools were managed by volunteer managers, and the children were employed not only for purposes of instruction but also for profit, upon which the maintenance of the schools largely depended. The schools were supported partly by grants of public money and partly by the labour of the children. If any class of children required the protection of the local authority under this Bill he thought it was the children in these schools. It was quite true that the rules of the schools were made by boards of managers, but the managers were interested, and therefore he thought those children ought to be protected under the Bill. He agreed that the industrial and reformatory schools were extremely well managed, but there were some schools in which the children worked very hard and were employed upon work which was not at all instructive or educational, and very often they were employed for long hours. Under these circumstances the local authority ought to be able to bring those schools under the regulations which applied to other schools.
§ MR. JESSE COLLINGS (Birmingham, Bordesley)said if his right hon. friend would refer to the reports of industrial and reformatory schools he would not 329 find that there was any overworking of the children. A number of benevolent persons at great cost of time and money became managers of those schools, and he thought they might fairly be trusted to do nothing that would unduly weigh upon the children. He thought the Home Secretary was perfectly right in his new clause, and he thought there ought to be a limit of interference with the wise and careful action of the managers of industrial and reformatory schools to whom they owed so much. He thought those managers would be the very first to see that nothing was done in the direction of overworking the children, who, as a rule, were given plenty of time for recreation. If the time in the school was not to be filled up according to the judgment of the managers, he thought great harm would be done. Surely they could leave this matter to the discretion of the managers, who had proved themselves worthy of such discretion.
§ THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. COCHRANE,) Ayrshire, N.pointed out that besides applying to industrial and reformatory schools this Bill would also apply to blind asylums and other places. It was quite true that the labour in the schools was carried on
§ for profit, but not in the sense in which it was generally understood. This clause has been very carefully considered by the Home Department, and he would remind the House that those schools were inspected by the Home Office inspectors, and if they placed them under the local authority they might have by-laws made by the local authority which might come into conflict with the rules now governing those institutions.
§ Clause added.
§ *MR. TENNANTasked if the right hon. Gentleman accepted the addition of the words he had suggested.
§ *MR. AKERS DOUGLASNo.
§ *MR. TENNANTThen I beg to move the Amendment of which I have given notice.
§
Amendment proposed—
In line 2 after the word 'labour' to insert the words 'during a portion of the school hours.'"—(Mr. Tennant.)
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The House divided; Ayes, 84; Noes, 209. (Division List No. 129.)
331| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Pearson, Sir Weetman D. |
| Allan, Sir William (Gateshead | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden |
| Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud) | Grant, Corrie | Philipps, John Wynford |
| Asher, Alexander | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Price, Robert John |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tyd | Rigg, Richard |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Harwood, George | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs. |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Black, Alexander William | Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale | Russell, T. W. |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Helme, Norval Watson | Samuel Herbt. L. (Cleveland) |
| Brand, Hon. Arthur G. | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.) |
| Brigg, John | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Holland, Sir William Henry | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Bryce, Right Hon. James | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Taylor, Theo. C. (Radcliffe) |
| Burns, John | Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. | Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Caldwell, James | Jones, David B. (Swansea) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Cameron, Robert | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Cawley, Frederick | Jordan, Jeremiah | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. | Tomkinson, James |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark | Lambert, George | Wallace, Robert |
| Crombie, John William | Langley, Batty | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Crooks, William | Levy, Maurice | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan | Lewis, John Herbert | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Logan, John William | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Dunn, Sir William | Lough, Thomas | Wilson, J. W. (Worcester., N.) |
| Edwards, Frank | M'Crae, George | |
| Fenwick, Charles | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Markham, Arthur Basil | Mr. Tennant and Mr. |
| Foster, Sir Michael (Loud. Univ. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Broadhurst. |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. | Murphy, John | |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Partington, Oswald | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Flower, Ernest | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Arrol, Sir William | Forster, Henry William | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W. | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Austin, Sir John | Fyler, John Arthur | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Galloway, William Johnson | Peel, Hn. Wm. R. Wellesley |
| Bain Colonel James Robert | Gardner, Ernest | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r | Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond | Percy, Earl |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gordon, Maj Evans- (Tr. Hmlts | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Grenfell, William Henry | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Bignold, Arthur | Groves, James Grimble | Purvis, Robert |
| Bigwood, James | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Rankin, Sir James |
| Bill, Charles | Hain, Edward | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Bond, Edward | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Mid'x | Remnant, Jas. Farquharson |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis) | Hamilton, Marq. of (Londondy | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Brassey, Albert | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Butcher, John George | Hatch, Ernest Frederick G. | Robertson, H. (Hackney) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn J. A. (Glasg.) | Hayden, John Patrick | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ | Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Heath, James (Staff's., N. W.) | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hogg, Lindsay | Sadler, Col. Saml. Alexander |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hope, J. F. (Sheff., B'tside) | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon J. (Birm | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc | Houston, Robert Paterson | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Chamberlayne, T. (Southmptn | Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham) | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Chapman, Edward | Howard, J. (Midd., Tott'ham | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.) | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Smith, H. C. (North'mb Tyneside |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Joyce, Michael | Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Kennedy, Patrick James | Spear, John Ward |
| Collings, Right Hon. Jesse | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop | Stanley, Edw Jas. (Somerset) |
| Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Keswick, William | Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Kilbride, Denis | Stock, James Henry |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Stroyan, John |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S. | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Lawernce, Sir Joseph (Monm'th | Sturt, Hon. Humphly Napier |
| Crean, Eugene | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks, N. R. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Valentia, Viscount |
| Delany, William | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H. |
| Denny, Colonel | Lundon, W. | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway) | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Webb, Col. William George |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Macdona, John Cumming | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und-Lyne |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Willoughby de Eresby. Lord |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | M'Calmont, Colonel James | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. O. | M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) | Wilson, A. Stanley York, E. R. |
| Doogan, P. C. | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Doughty, George | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hun. A. Akers | Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N. | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Mitchell, William (Burnley) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Duffy, William J. | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) | Wortley, Rt. Hon C. B. Stuart |
| Duke, Henry Edward | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | Wylie, Alexander |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Morrell, George Herbert | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Morrison, James Archibald | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Young, Samuel |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Mount, William Arthur | |
| Ffrench, Peter | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Murray, Col Wyndham (Bath) | Sir Alexander Acland- |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Myers, William Henry | Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
Question put, and agreed to.