HC Deb 22 July 1903 vol 125 cc1507-28

As amended (by the Standing Committee), further considered.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 37, line 35, to leave out from the word 'custody' to the word 'may' in line 36."—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 38, line 3, after the word 'manner' to insert the words 'or while drunk uses obscene or indecent language to the annoyance of any person.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 38, line 14, at end, to insert the words 'If any person charged with an offence under this sub-section shall have been taken into custody and liberated on bail or pledge and shall fail to appear at the calling of the case at the first Court thereafter, the Court may (save as otherwise provided by or under any general or local Police Act applying to a burgh as aforesaid) declare such bail or pledge to be forfeited, and may in addition, if the case in the opinion of the Court shall so require, summon him to appear before the Court or grant warrant for his apprehension.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

MR. CALDWELL (Lanarkshire, Mid)

said he was afraid that in some cases a little favouritism might be shown.

*THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,) Buteshire

assured the hon. Member that this proposal had been most carefully considered.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 38, lines 26 and 27, to leave out the words 'public conveyance or other,' and insert the words 'and any.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 38, line 28, after the word 'otherwise' to insert the words 'and any public conveyance.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 38, line 30, at end, to insert the words, (5) 'For the purposes of this section the expression "public place" shall include the harbour of Glasgow, the expression "public conveyance" shall include the ferry boats in the River Clyde as defined by the Clyde Navigation Acts, and the expression "magistrate" shall include the bailie, depute bailie, and Judge exercising jurisdiction in the Court of the bailie of the River and Firth of Clyde.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 39, line 3, after the word 'person' to insert the word 'is.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 39, line 4, after the figures '1898' to insert the word 'and.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 39, line 31, to leave out the words 'before the sheriff.'"—(Mr. Caldwell.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In 40, line 27, at end, to add the words, "The offence under this section of being found in any she been drunk shall be deemed to be an offence mentioned in the First Schedule to The Inebriates Act, 1898.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 40, line 40, at end of clause to insert the words 'unless he proves to the satisfaction of the Court that such liquor was so consumed without is knowledge or against his consent.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 42, lines 18 and 19, to leave out the words 'if duly authorised by the police authority.'"—(Mr. Caldwell.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 43, line 11, at end, to add the words, (7)'A club may make application for a certificate of registration at any time after the thirtieth day of November nineteen hundred and three and before the commencement of this Act, and no club which has made such application shall be deemed to be an unregistered club pending the final decision of the sheriff on such application, and any application so made shall for the purposes of this section be deemed to have been made on the first day of January nineteen hundred and four.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 43, line 16, to leave out the words 'annually by the general body of members, and insert the words 'for not less than a year by the general body of members and subject in whole or in a specified proportion to annual re-election.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 43, line 35, to leave out from the word 'be' to the word 'which' in line 38, and insert the words 'supplied with excisable liquor in the club premises unless on the invitation and in the company of a member and that the member shall, upon the admission of such visitor to the club premises or immediately upon his being supplied with such liquor, enter his own name and the name and address of the visitor in a book.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question proposed "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

MR. CALDWELL

said the latter part of this proposal read— And that the member shall, upon the admission of such visitor to the club premises, or immediately upon his being supplied with such liquor, enter his own name and the name and address of the visitor in a book. He thought that was going a little too far, because it meant entering the name in the visitors' book, although the visitor might be going in only temporarily. Then, again, the liquor was to be supplied to the member on his own responsibility. The requirement was that if the name had not been entered in the book they were to enter it in some other book immediately the liquor was supplied. He thought that was an unnecessary restriction, and no practical benefit would be derived from it. They were already taking precautions that the liquor was only to be supplied on the member's own responsibility, and that ought to be sufficient without putting the other words in. Perhaps the Lord Advocate had been pressed into this proposal without considering its full effect. He suggested that the words from "a member" in the third line to the end of the clause should be left out.

MR. HUNTER CRAIG (Lanarkshire, Govan)

thought it would be far more sensible to alter the phrase and insert, "or immediately before being supplied."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he could not accept the suggestions which had been made.

Question put, and negatived.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 46, line 10, after the word 'consumption' to insert the words 'or to a person holding an excise licence for the sale of such liquor.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 48, line 19, to leave out from beginning of line to the word 'served,' in line 31, and insert the words 'a complaint for breach of certificate shall be.'"—(The Lord Advocate)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the bill— In page 48, line 32, to leave out the words 'to attend the hearing of such complaint.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 48, line 33, to leave out the words 'said party,' and insert the words 'party complained against.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 49, line 6, to leave out from the word 'against,' to end of clause."—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 49, leave out Clause 92."—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 50, line 5, after the word 'of,' insert the words 'other prosecutor ordinarily acting in such respective Courts or in the case of a justice of the peace or burgh police court at the instance.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 50, line 7, to leave out the word 'magistrates,' and insert the words 'town council.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 50, line 10, to leave out the words 'magistrates as the case may be shall,' and insert the words 'town council, as the case may be, may.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 50, line 16, to leave out from the word 'taxed,' to the word 'as,' in line 17, and insert the words 'on behalf of the County Council or Town Council.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 50, line 19, to leave out the words 'also the execution of this Act,' and insert the words 'such business.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 50, line 22, to leave out the word 'burgh' and insert the words 'Royal or Parliamentary burghs having a separate licensing Court.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— 'In page 51, line 5, to leave out the word 'may' and insert the word 'shall.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 51, line 7, to leave out from the word 'determined,' to the word 'and,' in line 8, and insert the words 'under the provisions of the Summary Jurisdiction Acts.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 51, line 16, at end, to insert the words 'Provided that, in any complaint brought under this Act, the description of any offence against this Act in the words of the Act, or of any certificate granted thereunder shall be sufficient in law.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 51, leave out Clause 95."—(The Lord Adoocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 51, line 37, to leave out the words 'toll house.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 52, line 7, to leave out the words 'toll houses.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 52, line 19, to leave out the words 'sixty days,' and insert the words 'two months.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 52, line 33, to leave out the words 'sixty days,' and insert the words 'two months.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 53, line 23, to leave out the words 'sixty days,' and insert the words 'two months.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 54, line 6, at beginning, to insert the words, 'A certified extract of.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 55, line 17, to leave out from the 'word 'for,' to the word 'in,' in line 21, and insert the words, 'any offence punishable by fine or by imprisonment to bring the case by appeal before the High Court of Justiciary.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 55, line 38, to leave out from the word 'clerk,' to the word 'a' in line 39, and insert the words, 'of the High Court of Justiciary.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 56, line 9, at end of line to insert the words, 'or with the right of appeal under The Summary Prosecutions Appeals (Scotland) Act, 1875, or the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 56, line 27, at end, to add the words, 'And nothing in this Act contained shall be read as limiting any power to mitigate penalties contained in the Summary Jurisdiction Acts or any other Act, or as excluding the operation of the Fine or Imprisonment (Scotland and Ireland) Act, 1899.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

MR. GRETTON (Derbyshire, S.)

moved an Amendment with the object of keeping open for discussion the question whether the licensing authority should have the option of allowing certain licence-holders to keep their premises open till 11 p.m. or whether they should come within the provisions of the schedule. He moved.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 64, line 12, at the end, to insert the words—'Part I. Forms of certificate applicable to all counties and districts and to all burghs not specified in Part II.'"—(Mr. Gretton.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

*MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said this Amendment raised a question of very great importance, and he thought it would be necessary to explain the position of the Government upon it. It might conduce to clearness if he reminded the House what the law was before this Bill was introduced. First of all he would remind hon. Members that in Scotland there were three forms of certificate—one applicable to hotels, another applicable to public-houses, and the third applicable to grocers. In all these forms of certificate the hour of opening was eight o'clock in the morning. In the law as settled by the Home Drummond Act and earlier Acts the hour of closing in all of them was eleven o'clock, subject to a special power of the licensing authority which then existed in certain districts to close at an earlier hour, but not earlier than nine. In 1887 an Act was passed which altered the form of certificate so far as the evening was concerned, and made the hour optional, according to the view of the licensing authority, between ten and eleven. That was to say, they could not close sooner than ten, and they could not keep open later than eleven. But that Act, which altered the form of certificate in this way, did not apply to certain large burghs. It applied to all except the exempted burghs which had a population of over 50,000. That was how the law stood, and in this Bill as introduced by the Government it was not proposed to make any change either in the hours of opening or closing. But the Government were confronted with a series of Amendments in different Members' names which related to one end of the day and the other. That was to say, there was an Amendment which proposed that in the morning, in the option of the licensing authority, the opening hour should be as late as ten o'clock, and with regard to the evening there were Amendments which proposed that there should be no distinction in future between the seven large towns and the rest of Scotland. There was indeed one Amendment which would have given absolute power to the magistrates without indicating any hours at all. The matter was mooted in Committee by an Amendment of the hon. Member for Kincardineshire, which in the form of a by-law proposed to give absolute discretion at both ends to the Licensing Court. He took exception upon a point of order to that Amendment and held that it could not be done in the form of a by-law, and that it must be done on the certificate A discussion arose, and he took occasion at that time to say that he had made up his mind to accept an Amendment which put the large towns in the same position as the smaller towns. The hon. and learned Member for the Dumfries Burghs said that in view of that position which he had indicated, it was hardly necessary to press the Amendment then before the Committee, and the matter was allowed to drop. Of course in making the announcement he naturally disclosed what he considered to be the whole position and policy of the Government, but notwithstanding that concession, he was confronted at a later stage of the Bill by an Amendment, by way of a new clause amending the schedule, which, of course, was quite in order. By that Amendment the morning hours were also altered, and it was made optional not to open till ten. He resisted that Amendment, but was beaten in the division which ensued. He thought he might, as a matter of fact, claim that that absolved him from his promise to make a concession on the matter later on, but he did not do so. Now he was again confronted with certain Amendments which raised the whole question, and he need scarcely say that it had been a matter of grave consideration what he should do. He had come to the conclusion that the only proper course for him to take was to stick to the policy of the Government which he indicated in Committee. He proposed to resist the present Amendment, making a distinction between the large towns and the small towns and to restore the hour in the morning. He thought it must be obvious, that the conditions of life were quite different in the large towns as compared with the small towns. He was confronted with the fact that certainly one of the large towns—Edinburgh—had not shown any anxiety, through its municipality, to have a change; while, on the other hand, the municipalities of the other large towns had shown a desire to have no distinction made. But inasmuch as, after all, the power was only optional, and if the magistrates chose they could still keep to 11 o'clock as the hour of closing, as there was a special power of closing in special districts, and as there were no good grounds for making a distinction between Edinburgh and the other large towns, he had come to the conclusion that it was his duty, on behalf of the Government, to resist the present Amendment.

SIR ROBERT REID (Dumfries Burghs)

said he thought the Lord Advocate was perfectly right in resisting this Amendment, the effect of that resistance being to preserve uniformity of treatment between the large and the small burghs.

*SIR LEWIS MCIVER (Edinburgh, W.)

said that after what had fallen from the Lord Advocate it was quite obvious that it would be a waste of the time of the House to press the matter much further. He only wished to say that this action of the Government, as represented by the Lord Advocate, was a very remarkable departure from what had been the policy of the Government a very short time ago. It adopted the principle which had been rejected by Parliament definitely on one occasion; and it was not included in the recommendations of the Majority Report of the Royal Commission. It was not fair to those who represented the great cities of Scotland that they were about to be treated as no other great cities in the United Kingdom had hitherto been treated, and that the Government should have departed from the policy which they announced last year. Although he had put down a consequential Amendment to exempt the city, a portion of which he represented, he strongly urged his hon. friend not to press the matter further.

*SIR ANDREW AGNEW (Edinburgh, S.)

said that there was a very great distinction in the habits of the people in the large towns and the small towns. In the small towns and country districts circumstances varied a great deal. It was, therefore, quite fair that there should be a discretion on the part of the magistrates. In some places there would be no object in keeping open public-houses after ten o'clock, I because little or no business would be done, and what business was done was such as they all wished to prevent. But, in the case of big towns, it was perfectly different. The city, part of which he had the honour to represent, did not wish to see any change made in the law as it stood at present. They knew that theatres in large towns all closed after ten o'clock, and it would be very unfair that people on coming out of them should not be able to get any refreshments before they went home. It was said that in this case there was a discretion, and that it was optional whether the public-houses should be closed at ten o'clock. That was exactly what he objected to. When all the conditions were perfectly well known, he thought it would be much better that the Legislature should settle what the hours of opening and closing should be. If there was a difference between Edinburgh and Glasgow, it would not be because the circumstances of the two cities were different, but because the magistrates in each took a different view on the temperance ques- tion. He did not think that was fair either to the trade or to the public.

MR. CALDWELL

said that when the Burgh Police Bill went originally through the House of Commons, both the Committee and the House unanimously put the whole of the burghs in Scotland on one footing. It was in the House of Lords that the difference was brought in, and rather than lose the Bill the Commons accepted the Lords' Amendment. Ever since then it was found in the case of the small burghs a great advantage to have an optional power of closing early; and there was not a burgh in Scotland which would wish to go back to eleven o'clock closing. All the large burghs, with the exception of Edinburgh, had asked to have the optional power to close at ten o'clock. If Edinburgh did not wish to exercise the option, Edinburgh could remain open till eleven o'clock.

SIR CHARLES RENSHAW (Renfrewshire, W.)

said he was not sure that his hon. friend who represented Edinburgh West, represented the views of the larger burghs in Scotland on this matter. No doubt in the case of Edinburgh there was something in the argument which his hon. friend had placed before the House; but so far as he understood the position of the six larger burghs, he believed that Aberdeen had already, by voluntary agreement, fixed ten o'clock as the hour of closing; while in the case of Greenock ten o'clock had been fixed on all days of the week except Saturday. He understood that Glasgow had asked with a very loud voice that this very great benefit of an optional power of closing at ten o'clock should be given to it. Under these circumstances the House ought to have no hesitation in supporting the Government in this matter.

MR. GRETTON

said that after the discussion which had taken place he would withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. EUGENE WASON (Clackmannan and Kinross)

said that on behalf of his hon. friend the Member for Kin- cardineshire he wished to amend Schedule 6 by providing that the licence holder should not himself be, or permit any of his servants to be, in a state of intoxication on the premises.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 65, line 5, after the word, 'premises,' to insert the words 'and do not himself be, or permit any of his servants to be, in a state of intoxication on the premises.'"—(Mr. Eugene Wason.)

*MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he would accept the Amendment if the hon. Member would agree to omit the words "or permit any of his servants to be."

MR. EUGENE WASON

said he accepted the suggestion.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

MR. BLACK (Banffshire)

said that on behalf of the hon. Member for Kincardineshire he wished to move to amend the schedule by leaving out "14"and inserting "16," the effect of which would be to raise the age to sixteen, below which it would be incompetent for any licence-holder to supply liquor to children. This was in accordance with the unanimous recommendations of the Royal Commission, and with, he believed, the practice and law in England. To show the views of the trade, Mr. Robertson, Wine and Spirit Merchant, Edinburgh, in his evidence before the Royal Commission went the length of saying that if a boy under eighteen came into his shop and asked for a glass of beer he would recommend him to take a cup of tea or coffee. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 65, line 8, to leave out the word 'fourteen,' and insert the word 'sixteen.'"—(Mr. Black.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'fourteen' stand part of the Bill."

*MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said that this Amendment would be quite inconsistent with Clauses 57 and 58. Clause 58 was the "Child Messengers Bill" engrafted on to this Bill. Clause 57 was quite different. It said that the licence-holder was not to give spirits to any young person under sixteen years of age for consumption on the premises. He might give the young person beer or spirits as a messenger if the messenger was not under fourteen years of age. If the hon. Member's clause were carried it would be a breach of certificate to give any excisable liquor to a messenger or anybody else. He saw no reason to do that after only one year's experience of that Act.

SIR ROBERT REID

said the Amendment might be inconsistent with, and yet not be repugnant to, a provision of the Bill. The child messenger was only part of the whole. Scotland, in these matters, had always been in advance of England, but in this case she was behind. That in itself was a sufficient reason for this Amendment, and he would give his hearty support.

SIR. J. FERGUSSON (Manchester, N.E.)

said it seemed to him to be more objectionable to send a girl of sixteen to a public-house as a messenger than a child of fourteen.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 200; Noes, 93. (Division List No. 182.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r Butcher, John George
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow
Allhusen, Aug. Henry Eden Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Banbury, Sir Frederick George Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.
Anstruther, H. T. Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. Hicks Cayzer, Sir Charles William
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)
Arrol, Sir William Bill, Charles Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Blundell, Colonel Henry Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm
Bailey, James (Walworth) Bond, Edward Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc
Bain, Colonel James Robert Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Chamberlayne, T. (South'mpt'n
Baird, John George Alexander Bowles, T. Gibson(Lynn Regis) Chapman, Edward
Balcarres, Lord Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Charrington, Spencer
Churchill, Winston Spencer Hare, Thomas Leigh O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Clare, Octavius Leigh Haslam, Sir Alfred S. O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. O'Malley, William
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley) Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Helder, Augustus Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Henderson, Sir Alexander Pemberton, John S. G.
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Percy, Earl
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Hickman, Sir Alfred Pretyman, Ernest George
Cripps, Charles Alfred Hobhouse, Rt. Hn. H. (Somrst E. Purvis, Robert
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Houston, Robert Paterson Randles John S.
Davenport, William Bromley Howard, Jno (Kent, Faver'hm Reddy, M.
Denny, Colonel Hudson, George Bickersteth Remnant, James Farqubarson
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh Renwick, George
Dickson, Charles Scott King, Sir Henry Seymour Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Knowles, Lees Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson
Doogan, P. C. Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E. Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Doughty, George Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool Round, Rt. Hon. James
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Lawson, John Grant (Yorks, N. R. Royds, Clement Molyneux
Duke, Henry Edward Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Llewellyn, Evan Henry Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Faber, E. B. (Hants, W.) Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Faber, George Denison (York) Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S. Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Fardell, Sir T. George Lonsdale, John Brownlee Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r Lowe, Francis William Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale) Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth) Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas Lundon, W. Smith, James Parker (Lanarks
Fisher, William Hayes Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon Macdona, John Cumming Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Maconochie, A. W. Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.
Flower, Ernest M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Forster, Henry William M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) Stroyan, John
Gardner, Ernest M'Killop W. (Sligo North) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Garfit William Majendie, James A. H. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ
Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n) Thorburn, Sir Walter
Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elginand Nairn Melville, Beresford Valentine Tollemache, Henry James
Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop Milvain, Thomas Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Mitchell, William (Burnley) Valentia, Viscount
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Molesworth, Sir Lewis Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Warde, Colonel C. E.
Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
Grenfell, William Henry Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Williams Rt. Hn. J. Powell- (Birm
Gretton, John Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Greville, Hon. Ronald Morrell, George Herbert Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.
Groves, James Grimble Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C. Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Gunter, Sir Robert Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart
Guthrie, Walter Murray Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) Yerburgh, Robt. Armstrong
Hall Edward Marshall Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath
Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Mid'x Nicholson, William Graham TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Hamilton, Marq. of (Londondy Nolan, Joseph (Louth, S.) Sir Alexander Acland-
Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashfd. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
NOES.
Allen, Charles P. (Glouc.,Stroud Caldwell, James Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John
Asher, Alexander Cameron, Robert Goddard, Daniel Ford
Ashton, Thomas Gair Cawley, Frederick Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbt. Hy. Channing, Francis Allston Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Barlow, John Emmott Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.) Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil
Barran, Rowland Hirst Craig, Robert Huter (Lanark) Harmsworth, R. Leicester
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Dalziel, James Henry Hay, Hon. Claude George
Bignold, Arthur Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.
Brigg, John Duncan, J. Hastings Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)
Broadhurst, Henry Dunn, Sir William Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh Elibank, Master of Jacoby, James Alfred
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Emmott, Alfred Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Evans, Saml. T. (Glamorgan) Kearley, Hudson E.
Burt, Thomas Fenwick, Charles Langley, Batty
Layland-Barratt, Francis Roe, Sir Thomas Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland Wallace, Robert
Lewis, John Herbert Shackleton, David James Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Mansfield, Horace Rendall Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
Markham, Arthur Basil Shipman, Dr. John G. Weir, James Galloway
Mitchell, Edw.(Fermanagh, N. Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Sloan, Thomas Henry Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Newnes, Sir George Smith, H. C. (North'mb Tyneside Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Nussey, Thomas Willans Soames, Arthur Wellesley Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Soares, Ernest J. Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Partington, Oswald Spear, John Ward Wylie, Alexander
Paulton, James Mellor Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants Yoxall, James Henry
Philipps, John Wynford Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe
Pirie, Duncan V. Tennant, Harold John
Price, Robert John Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries) Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr Mr. Black and Mr.
Rigg, Richard Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings Eugene Wason.
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Tomkinson, James
*MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said in Committee an Amendment was carried against him fixing the hour for the opening of licensed premises at ten o'clock in the morning. He desired to move an Amendment which stood on the Paper in the name of the Member for South-West Manchester, re-establishing the present hour of opening at eight o'clock, and thereby providing a uniform hour for the premises of both publicans and grocers. He thought to delay the hour of opening for grocers until ten in the morning would be very prejudicial to the grocery trade, and it was impossible to make a distinction between the grocery business and the sale of excisable liquors on the same premises. He begged to move—

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 65, line 12, leave out the words 'such hour' and insert the words 'eight of the clock.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'such hour' stand part of the Bill."

COLONEL DENNY (Kilmarnock Burghs)

said he rose with some diffidence to oppose the Amendment. He could not overlook the fact that very cogent reasons were given in Committee for the hour being changed, and the hour was changed by a vote of twenty-two to nine, the majority not being confined to one side of the House. He some two years ago, had brought in a Bill to restrict the hour of opening to ten o'clock, and on that occasion had gone into the whole question. If a workman was late at his work and was stopped off till after breakfast, he could not go home because his home was not ready for him, and if licensed houses were open he was subjected to the great temptation to drink under the worst conditions—namely, on an empty stomach. He would be glad to accept as a compromise the Amendment which appeared a little lower down in the name of the Lord Advocate to make the hour nine, but he could not support this Amendment. The great majority of Scottish Members were in favour of restricting the hour to ten o'clock and he hoped the House would reject this Amendment.

SIR ROBERT REID

said he heartily agreed with the Member who had just sat down, and hoped the House would take the same view. The Lord Advocate himself had put down an Amendment to fix the hour of opening at nine o'clock. He thought that might be accepted as a compromise.

SIR J. STIRLING-MAXWELL (Glasgow, College)

said if he understood the schedule rightly a grocer was at liberty to open his premises at any hour he liked except for the sale of excisable liquors. He thought the House ought to give the Lord Advocate the opportunity of moving his own Amendment by defeating his present proposal.

SIR J. FERGUSSON

, who also opposed the Amendment, stated that he was much impressed when sitting on the Commission on Grocers' Licences by the evidence given by chief constables and others that workmen were tempted before breakfast to indulge in the raw spirits sold by some houses. That was proved before the Commission. That temptation would be removed if the hour of opening was fixed at ten o'clock.

MR PARKER SMITH (Lanarkshire, Partick)

regretted that the Lord Advocate should have given up his own Amendment and moved that of the hon. Member for South-West Manchester. The Bill as it stood made the hour ten o'clock. If that was going too far the Amendment in the name of the Lord Advocate would surely meet the case. By nine o'clock a man's home was ready for him, and the mischief of a man who was shut out from work going to get drink because no other place was Open was avoided. The burden on the grocers was comparatively light, as they could keep their shops open from eight to nine o'clock and do everything except sell excisable liquors during that hour. This was a matter in which Scotch opinion ought to be respected, and he hoped the Lord Advocate would abstain from appointing Government tellers in the division, so that Members could vote without consideration of Party.

*SIR ANDREW AGNEW

thought that the feeling in Scotland was not

nearly so strong as the hon. Member for Partick assumed. He should certainly vote for the Amendment. Ten o'clock would be an absurdly late hour to fix; nine o'clock was preferable to ten; but the present hour of eight o'clock was better still, and no good reason had been given why it should be changed. Two hundred years ago beer was universally drunk for breakfast, and he failed to see why it should be a crime to take a glass for breakfast now.

MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)

joined in the appeal to the Lord Advocate to allow the question to be voted on freely. It was really a question of whether or not the Scotch people were to be trusted in this matter. By leaving Members free to vote according to their conviction the wishes of the Scotch people would be consulted, and he assured the Lord Advocate that the adoption of any other course would not facilitate the progress of the Bill.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 107; Noes 168. (Division List No. 183.)

AYES.
Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud) Emmott, Alfred Partington, Oswald
Arrol, Sir William Evans, Saml. T. (Glamorgan) Pemberton, John S. G.
Asher, Alexander Fenwick, Charles Philipps, John Wynford
Baird, John George Alexander Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Barlow, John Emmott Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Rigg, Richard
Barran, Rowland Hirst Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Roberts, John H. {Denbighs.)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hanlie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil Roe, Sir Thomas
Bignold, Arthur Harmsworth, R. Leicester Russell, T. W.
Black, Alexander William Harwood, George Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Hay, Hon. Claude George Shackleton, David James
Brigg, John Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)
Broadhurst, Henry Holland, Sir William Henry Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Bryce, Right Hon. James Jacoby, James Alfred Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Sloan, Thomas Henry
Caldwell, James Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Cameron, Robert Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasg.) Layland-Barratt, Francis Soares, Ernest J.
Cawley, Frederick Leveson-Grower, Frederick N. S. Spear, John Ward
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Levy, Maurice Stevenson, Francis S.
Channing, Francis Allston Lewis, John Herbert Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.) Lundon, W. Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Maconochie, A. W. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) Tennant, Harold John
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Mansfield, Horace Rendall Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Dalziel, James Henry Markham, Arthur Basil Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N. Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Thorburn, Sir Walter
Duncan, J. Hastings Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Tomkinson, James
Dunn, Sir William Newnes, Sir George Toulmin, George
Edwards, Frank Nussey, Thomas Willans Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Elibank, Master of Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Wilson, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Weir, James Galloway Wilson, H. J. (York, W. S.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) Sir James Fergusson and
Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Wilson, John (Falkirk) Colonel Denny.
Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) Yoxall, James Henry
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Flannery, Sir Fortescue Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Flower, Ernest Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh.
Allhusen, Aug. Henry Eden Forster, Henry William Morrell, George Herbert
Anson, Sir William Reynell Galloway, William Johnson Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Anstruther, H. T. Gardner, Ernest Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Garfit, William Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath
Bailey, James (Walworth) Gordon, Maj. Evans (Tr. Hmlts Nicholson, William Graham
Bain, Colonel James Robert Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon Nolan, Joseph (Louth, S.)
Balcarres, Lord Goschen, Hon. George Joachim O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Halfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) O'Dowd, John
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Grenfell, William Henry Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Gretton, John Percy, Earl
Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. Hicks Greville, Hon. Ronald Pierpoint, Robert
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Groves, James Grimble Pretyman, Ernest George
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Purvis, Robert
Bill, Charles Guthrie, Walter Murray Randles, John S.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hall, Edward Marshall Remnant, James Farquharson
Bond, Edward Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Midx Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Hamilton, Marq. of (Londondy Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashfd Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Butcher, John George Hare, Thomas Leigh Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Round, Rt. Hon. James
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley) Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Helder, Augustus Rutherford, John (Lancashire
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc Hickman, Sir Alfred Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Chamberlayne, T. (Southmptn Hobhouse, Rt. Hn. H. (Somrst E. Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Chapman, Edward Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles
Charrington, Spencer Hoult, Joseph Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
Churchill, Winston Spencer Houston, Robert Paterson Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Clare, Octavius Leigh Hudson, George Bickersteth Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Stone, Sir Benjamin
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Kilbride, Denis Stroyan, John
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse King, Sir Henry Seymour Strutt, Hon. Charlee Hedley
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Knowles, Lees Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Tollemache, Henry James
Condon, Thomas Joseph Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Cranborne, Viscount Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N. R. Valentia, Viscount
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H.
Davenport, William Bromley Llewellyn, Evan Henry Webb, Colonel William George
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyne
Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets) Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Williams, Rt. Hn. J. Powell- (Birm
Dickson, Charles Scott Lonsdale, John Brownlee Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Doughty, George Lowe, Francis William Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Duke, Henry Edward Macdona, John Cumming Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Yerburgh, Robt. Armstrong
Faber, E. B. (Hants, W.) Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n
Faber, George Denison (York) Melville, Beresford Valentine TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Milvain, Thomas Sir Alexander Acland-
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Mitchell, William (Burnley) Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
Fisher, William Hayes Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

And, it being half-past seven of the clock, further consideration of the Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), stood adjourned till this Evening's Sitting.