§ (4.10). THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.)The Motion standing on the Paper which I beg now to move, needs, I think, little explanation. I have been asked by Members on both sides of the House how the Government propose to deal with the situation which would be created if one of the new Standing Orders were to come into force while the others depending on it were hung up. The greatest confusion would result, and therefore it would be better that the scheme as a whole should be passed before any part of it came into operation. I beg to move.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That, until the consideration of the proposed Resolutions and Amendments to Standing Orders dealing with Sittings of the House, Friday Sittings, Priority of Business, Business in Supply, Questions to Members, Adjournment of the House, Private Business, Quorum of the House, and Standing Committees is completed, no one of such Resolutions or Amendments shall come into operation."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
§ MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)said he did not think the matter required any discussion, but he wished to point out to the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord that there must be very wide liberty of discussion when the House came to deal with the Amendment of Standing Orders. The right hon. Gentle- 366 man correctly observed the other day that they all hung together, and he must not complain if in the course of the debate hon. Members were compelled to range over the whole of the scheme of the Government. He mentioned this so that no objection might be raised hereafter. The Orders were so interdependent that it was absolutely impossible to avoid dealing with the proposed alterations from the very beginning.
§ In reply to Mr. JAMES LOWTHER (Kent, Thanet),
§ Mr. A.J. BALFOURsaid hon. Members, on referring to the Notice Paper, would see enumerated the Standing Orders involved in his present proposition, and in answer to Mr. CHAPLIN (Lincolnshire, Sleaford) he added that some of those already passed had come into operation.
§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTON (Tower Hamlets, Poplar)hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to printing on the White Paper the parts of the Standing Order referred to in the various Resolutions. It would be a great convenience to hon. Members.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURAs far as I am concerned, everything which conduces to the convenience of the House shall be adopted. I will ascertain if there is any physical difficulty in carrying out the hon. Gentleman's suggestion.
§ MR. DISRAELI (Cheshire, Altrincham)said he had, alter some consideration, come to the conclusion that it might be better, as the new Rules must be hung up for some time, to let them stand over till the end of the session. Two of the Amendments which had been passed, had already had to be hung up, and now they were asked to take eight or nine out of the total of 24, and to treat them in an absolutely different manner from the remaining Amendments. He thought the House and the country should know the real meaning of the Resolution, for they dealt with the very life of the House itself.
§ *MR. SPEAKEROrder, order! The hon. Member cannot discuss the merits of the Amendments now, nor can he debate whether the matter shall be 367 postponed to the end of the session. He must confine himself to the Amendment on the Paper.
§ MR. DISRAELIsaid he would move an Amendment which would effect the object he had in view.
§ *MR. SPEAKEROn the present Amendment the hon. Member cannot discuss either the merits of this proposition nor the desirability of postponing the operation of the new Rules altogether.
Amendment proposed—
To leave out the words 'Until the consideration of,' and insert the word 'when.'"—(Mr. Disraeli.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out, stand part of the Question."
§ *SIR CHARLES DILKE (Gloucestershire, Forest of Dean)said that apart
§ from the view of those who objected to the Rules altogether, and could therefore vote with the hon. Member if he went to a division, there was a particular case for a longer delay which could be made out in the course of the discussion on the next Rule. He did not know whether he should be in order in alluding to it, but he should like to mention that the First Lord of the Treasury had already made a statement as to the time when private business would be taken, and had indicated that it would be necessary to have a Committee to deal with the subject. The House did not know what were the proposals of the Government in regard to private business, and that he thought justified the demand for further delay.
§ (4.15.) Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 175; Noes, 119. (Division List No. 35.)
369| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Hoult, Joseph |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Denny, Colonel | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Dorington, Sir John Edward | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Johnston, William (Belfast) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.) |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Law, Andrew Bonar |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Finch, George H. | Lawson, John Grant |
| Balcarres, Lord | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Fisher, William Hayes | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Llewellyn, Evan Henry |
| Balfour, Rt Hn. G. W. (Leeds) | Flower, Ernest | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Fuller, J. M. F. | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.) |
| Bignold, Arthur | Galloway, William Johnson | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Garfit, William | Lough, Thomas |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans) | Lowe, Francis William |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) | Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop) | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow | Graham, Henry Robert | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward H. | Green, Walford D. Wednesbury | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Greene, Sir E. W. (B'yS. Edm'nds | M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.(Birm.) | Grenfell, William Henry | Manners, Lord Cecil |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r) | Groves, James Grimble | Maple, Sir John Blundell |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Halsey, Thomas Frederick | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh. |
| Chapman, Edward | Hamilton, Marq. Of (L'nd'nderry | Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashfo'd | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Mitchell, William |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.) | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) |
| Collings, Rt. Hn. Jesse | Heaton, John Henniker | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford) |
| Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Higginbottom, S. W. | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Myers, William Henry |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Percy, Earl |
| Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield |
| Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (I. of Wight) | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Plummer, Walter R. | Seton-Karr, Henry | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Purvis, Robert | Simeon, Sir Barrington | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton |
| Pym, C. Guy. | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.) |
| Randles, John S. | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Rankin, Sir James | Smith, H C (North'mb, Tyneside | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Rattigan, Sir William Henry | Smith, Hon. W. F. D (Strand) | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Rea, Russell | Spear, John Ward | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Reid, James (Greenock) | Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Renshaw, Charles Bine | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge) | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T. | Stock, James Henry | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier | Wylie, Alexander |
| Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) | |
| Royds, Clement Molyneux | Thorburn, Sir Walter | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir |
| Russell, T. W. | Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray | William Walrond and Mr. |
| Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Tritton, Charles Ernest | Anstruther. |
| Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Valentia, Viscount | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, W. (Cork, N. E.) | Harwood, George | O'Dowd, John |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Holland, William Henry | O'Shee, James John |
| Allen, C. P. (Glouc., Stroud) | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Jacoby, James Alfred | Pease, Sir J. W. (Durham) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Joicey, Sir James | Philipps, John Wynford |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Blake, Edward | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Price, Robert John |
| Boland, John | Jordan, Jeremiah | Reddy, M. |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Joyce, Michael | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Kennedy, Patrick James | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Caldwell, James | Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Kitson, Sir James | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Labouchere, Henry | Roche, John |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Lambert, George | Runciman, Walter |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Langley, Batty | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Crean, Eugene | Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Crombie, John William | Levy, Maurice | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants |
| Cullinan, J. | Lloyd-George, David | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Delany, William | Lundon, W. | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Tennant, Harold John |
| Dillon, John | M'Crae, George | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | M'Fadden, Edward | Thompson, Dr. E C (Monagh'nN |
| Doogan, P. C. | M'Govern, T. | Thomson, F. W. (Yorks, W. R.) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Tomkinson, James |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | M'Kenna, Reginald | Ure, Alexander |
| Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone) | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Wallace, Robert |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Murphy, John | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Nannetti, Joseph P. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) |
| Field, William | Norman, Henry | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Huddersfld |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | O'Brien, Kendal (Tip'erary Mid.) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Grant, Corrie | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Hammond, John | O'Doherty, William | Disraeli and Mr. Warner. |
| Hardie, J. K. (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
§ Ordered, That, until the consideration of the proposed Resolutions and Amendments to Standing Orders dealing with Sittings of the House, Friday Sittings, 370 Priority of Business, Business in Supply, Questions to Members, Adjournment of the House, Private Business, Quorum of the House, and Standing Committees 371 is completed, no one of such Resolutions or Amendments shall come into operation.