(8.5.) SIR WILLIAM WALKOXD (Devonshire, Tiverton), in moving that Sir Frederick Dixon Hartland be added to the Select Committee on Savings Banks Funds, said it was due to the House that he should state that it was through inadvertence on his part that the hon. Member's name did not appear on the original notice for the appointment of the Committee. He would ask the House to pass the Motion now.
§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That Sir Frederick Dixon-Hartland be added to the Select Committee."—(Sir William Walrond.)
* Mr. CHANGING (Northamptonshire, E.)said he asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other day whether he would add a labour representative to the Committee. The right hon. Member declined and said he did not recognise labour members as such. He used the term to describe that class of Member in the House who had themselves in their own lives practical experience of the wants and requirements of the great majority of the depositors in the Savings Banks and who knew their wishes. In opposing the Motion, he wished to say he had no hostile criticism to offer the hon. Member whom it was proposed to add to the Committee, nor as to the other Members of the Committee. He had no doubt that they were capable and impartial men. The Committee would have to consider exceedingly complex questions of finance, and, of course, it was desirable that it should contain Members who were especially acquainted with banking operations and with the relations of the Treasury to the Savings Banks. That was fully admitted, but, at the same time, on analysing the composition of the Committee, he found that no less than eight of its members were directly or indirectly connected with the banking interest, and the hon. Member whom it was now proposed to add to the Committee was actually a fellow director of the hon. Member for Huddersfield, also a member of the Committee, on the Board of the London City and Midland Bank. He regretted that after the attention of the Government had been 1268 drawn to the matter by his Question, they had not, in the interval, taken an opportunity, in order to secure that the Committee should be thoroughly representative, either to withdraw the name of the hon. Member in favour of an hon. Member representing the working classes, or to enlarge the Committee. If he were in order he would have moved the substitution of his hon. friend the Member for Mid-Durham. It was not merely a question of book-keeping and finance. Mr. Gladstone said it was a great question of national policy. The moment the Committee began to investigate the grave issues that would be committed to them, though there might be community of interest in one sense between the Treasury and the Savings Banks, between private bankers and the Post Office Savings Banks, he thought that it was perfectly obvious that conflicted interests would at once arise.
Of course he was precluded from going into the merits of the question, but the issues and the arguments were plain. There would be an effort to maintain or improve the rate of interest on behalf of the depositors, or to modify it in the interest of the Treasury. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had twice already tried to reduce or to modify the rate of interests, and was met by the contention that the situation was really caused by administrative restrictions, and that the Treasury was £1,600,000 in the debt of the depositors. If they went into the question of the interest or of the extension of the area of investment to find profitable investment for the enormous accumulations, there was at once conflict between the Treasury and the Banks. If they went into the question of the limit of deposits which had been raised from £.30 to £50, that would immediately bring about a conflict of interest between the depositors and private bankers. All these questions were of great importance, and it was essential to the fairness of the inquiry that they should be regarded from several points of view. There was the suggestion of separating the Savings Banks from the Treasury entirely and making it a separate department, and lastly there was the question of the utilisation of the accumulations of capital in the Savings Banks for other objects. Thus in Germany, Belgium and elsewhere first the Old Age Pensions Funds and then the accumulations of capital in Savings Banks were advanced on loan for housing and 1269 other purposes to the local authorities under conditions of equal security, and procuring a bettor interest for depositors. Having regard to all these questions it was desirable that on this Committee should be represented, not only the Treasury and banking interests, but also the working-class interest. He hoped the Government would reconsider the matter and
§ do something to secure the services of some one who specially represented the interests of the depositors generally.
§ (8.15.) Mr. SPEAKER put the Question in pursuance of Standing Order No. 16.
§ The House divided—Ayes, 200; Noes, 116. (Division List No. 131.)
1271| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Fellowes Hon. Ailwyn Edward | MacIver, David (Liverpool) |
| Aird, Sir John | Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Finch, George H. | M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.) |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | M' Iver Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh, W |
| Atkinson, Ht. Hon. John | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Fisher, William Hayes | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose | Malcolm, Ian |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Manners, Lord Cecil |
| Balcarres, Lord | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Maxwell, W. J. H. (D'mfriessh.) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Forster, Henry William | Middlemore John Throgmorton |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds | Galloway, William Johnson | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) | Gardner, Ernest | Milner, Rt Hon-Sir Frederick G. |
| Beach, Rt Hn Sir Mickael Hicks | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin& Nairn | Mitchell, William |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormshy-(Salop | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Gorst, Ht. Hon. Sir John Eldon | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Goschen, Hon. George Jeachim | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Bigwood James | Graham, Henry Robert | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford |
| Bill, Charles | Greene, Sir EW (B'ry S Edm'nds | Mount, William Arthur |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Gretton, John | Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute |
| Bond, Edward | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hall, Edward Marshall | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Brcokfield, Colonel Montagu | Halsey, Ht. Hon. Thomas F. | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Bull, William James | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Butcher, John George | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Carson, Ht. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Percy, Earl |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (D'rbyshire | Heath,. James (Staffords., N. W. | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Heaton, John Henniker | Plummer, Walter H. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Helder, Augustus | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Henderson, Alexander | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Chamberlain, Ht. Hon. J. (Birm. | Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter | Purvis, Robert |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Randles, John S. |
| Chamberlayne, T.(S'thampton | Horner, Frederick William | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Chapman, Edward | Houlds worth, Sir Wm. Henry | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Charrington, Spencer | Houston, Robert Paterson | Renwick, George |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Howard, J. (Midd, Tottenham | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.) | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Round, James |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Russell, T. W. |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Kimber, Henry | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Law, Andrew Bonar | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Lawson, John Grant | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants. Fareham | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Dewar, T. R (T'rH' mlets, S. Geo. | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Lock wood, Lt.-Col. A. R. | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Dorington, Sir John Edward | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Spear, John Ward |
| Douglas, Ht. Hon. A. Akers | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk) |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Stanley, Edward Jas (Somerset |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Stewart, Sir. Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Eaber, Edmund B. (Hants., W.) | Macdona, John Cumming | Stroyan, John |
| Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.) | Worsley-Taylor. Henry Wilson |
| Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne | Wylie, Alexander |
| Thorburn, Sir Walter | Williams Rt HnJPowell-(Birm. | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Thornton, Percy M. | Willox, Sir John Archibald | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) | |
| Valentia, Viscount | Wilson, John (Falkirk) | |
| Wanklyn, James Leslie | Wilson, John (Glasgow) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Warr, Augustus Frederick | Wilson Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks) | |
| Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Hemphill, Ht Hon. Charles H. | O'Dowd, John |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Allen, Charles P. (Gloue. Stroud | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Jameson, Major J Eustace | O'Malley, William |
| Athlerley-Jones, L. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | O'Mara, James |
| Austin, Sir John | Joyce, Michael | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Kennedy, Patrick James | Partington, Oswald |
| Bell, Richard | Kinlock, Sir John George Smyth | Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) |
| Blake, Edward | Lambert, George | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
| Boland, John | Leamy, Edmund | Pirie, Duncan Y. |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Caldwell, James | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Reddy, M. |
| Cameron, Robert | Leng, Sir John | Redmond, John F. (Waterford) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Lewis, John Herbert | Rigg, Richard |
| Cawley, Frederick | Lloyd-George, David | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Lough, Thomas | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lundon, W. | Roche, John |
| Crean, Eugene | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Cromer, William Randal | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Delany, William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | M'Crae, George | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Dillon, John | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Donelan, Captain A. | M'Kean, John | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Doogan, P. C. | M'Kenna, Reginald | Sullivan, Donal |
| Edwards, Frank | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Elibank, Master of | M'Laren, Charles Benjamin | Thomas, David Alf red (Merthyr |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Mooney, John J. | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Fenwick, Charles | Murphy, John | Weir, James Galloway |
| Ffrench, Peter | Nannetti, Joseph P. | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Field, William | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N. | White, Luke (York. E. R.) |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Norman, Henry | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R. |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | O'Brien, Kendal (Tip'erary, Mid | Young, Samuel |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Hammond, John | O'Brien, P J. (Tipperary, N.) | |
| Harmsworth, R. Leicester | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Channing and Mr. Broadhurst. |
| Hoyden, John Patrick | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | |
| Hayne, Ht. Hon. Charles Seale | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |