§ Order read, for further proceeding on consideration, as amended by the Standing Committee:—
§ The Clause (Definitions (Scotland)—
§ In the application of this Act to Scotland—
§ The expression "burial authority" shall mean the parish council or town council of any parish or burgh as defined in Sections 2 and 3 of the Burial Grounds (Scotland) Act, 1855, or any Act omending the same.
§ The expression "the Local Government Board" shall mean the Local Government Board (Scotland);
§ The expression "Secretary of State" shall mean the Secretary of State for Scotland—(Mr. Renshaw.)
§ Read a second time on 19th June.
§ LORD HUGH CECIL (Greenwich)said he desired to know if it would be in order now to move that the clause ex- 1550 tending the Bill to Scotland be postponed. The clause, having been read a second time, was part of the Bill, and he submitted it would be in order to move that it be postponed until the other clauses had been considered.
§ *MR. SPEAKERThat would not be in order.
§ LORD HUGH CECILsaid he desired to move an Amendment in order to raise a question of some little interest. In the opinion of the Law Officers of Scotland the parish council was the proper authority to be entrusted with powers under the Act, and it was provided that in the application of the Act to Scotland the expression "burial authority" should mean the parish council. It appeared to him, merely from English experience, that it was very doubtful whether it would be wise to entrust parish councils in Scotland with power to build crematoria. That would be a very expensive matter, and a matter requiring some scientific knowledge, which was not ordinarily at the disposal of a parish council. He should have thought that it was open to doubt whether the parish authority was the proper authority to carry through such a work. Then there was the question of expense. He thought he was right in saying that a parish council was limited with reference to its rating power under the Local Government Act, and no provision, so far as he was aware, was included in the Bill for extending that power. It would, therefore, in his opinion, be better to confine the application of the Bill in Scotland to the county councils, which commanded the best advice, and had very much greater financial resources. The Bill had been extended to Scotland on the advice of his hon. friend and against his own wishes, and, having been extended, it 1551 should be well considered. He begged to move to omit the words "parish councils or."
§
Amendment proposed to the proposed Clause—
To leave out the words 'the parish council or.'"—(Lord Hugh Cecil.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words 'the parish council or' stand part of the Clause."
§ MR. RENSHAW (Renfrewshire, W.)said he did not think the noble Lord quite apprehended the position in Scotland. He might explain that the parish council in Scotland was the burial authority, and the only authority which had any connection with the burial laws. There was no doubt whatever that under the regulations which would be laid down by the Secretary of State it would be impossible for small parish councils to apply the Act, but there were large parish councils in Scotland which would be able to avail of it. He would appeal to the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment, as the parish council was the only authority, outside the large boroughs, that could deal with the Bill in Scotland.
§ MR. BANBURYsaid that he was glad the Bill had been extended to Scotland, and, having been extended, they ought to make it workable. The noble Lord said that in his opinion the parish council would not be the proper authority, and he referred to the question of finance. His hon. friend who appealed to the noble Lord to withdraw his Amendment said that the small rural parish councils would be incompetent to carry out the provisions of the Act. Surely there was no use in putting in an authority which would be incompetent.
§ MR. RENSHAWsaid he did not suggest that the parish councils would be incompetent. What he did suggest was that many parish councils would not be large enough and would not have sufficient funds to meet the necessary regulations which would be laid down by the Secretary of State.
§ MR. BANBURYsaid he was wrong. He should have said that many of the parish councils would be unable to carry 1552 out the provisions of the Act, but if they were unable they would also be incompetent. He would ask the Solicitor General for Scotland whether it would not be possible to substitute the county council in Scotland for the parish council. He thought that would probably carry out what the noble Lord had in view.
§ *THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON, Glasgow, Bridgeton)With reference to the suggestion to substitute the county council for the parish council, I may point out that in Scotland the management and control of burial grounds under the Burial Acts have hitherto been vested in bodies whose powers are derived entirely from the parish. They were the parochial boards and are now the parish councils, and I am afraid it would lead to confusion and very great difficulty in administration if a body with such a large area as a county council were to be brought in to deal with matters which are really matters of parochial administration. Therefore, looking at the legislation existing in Scotland in this matter, I think that the right of saying whether a crematorium should or should not be erected should be with the parish council, and not with the county council. Of course the House will observe that the clause is merely an empowering clause, not a compelling clause. With reference to the observations of the noble Lord, I think it may be left to the well-known caution of the Scotch that they will not indulge in any superfluity of extravagance.
§ EARL PERCYsaid of course it was very difficult for an Englishman, ignorant of the details of local government in Scotland, to discuss the matter. He understood there was substantial agreement between his noble friend and the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. His noble friend said that the parish councils in many cases would not be the proper authority, and would not have sufficient funds to enable it to carry out the provisions of the Act. That was acknowledged by the hon. Member in charge of the Bill.
§ MR. RENSHAWsaid he begged to correct a misapprehension on the part of 1553 the noble Lord. He was not in charge of the Bill in any way. An hon. Member opposite was in charge of it.
§ EARL PERCYsaid the hon. Member was in charge of the particular clause extending the Bill to Scotland. The hon. Member admitted that the small rural authorities would not be in a position to comply with the regulations which would be laid down by the Secretary of State, but he said there was no intermediary body between the large borough councils and the parish councils in Scotland. He suggested that it might be possible to accept his noble friend's Amendment if a limit of population were inserted, so as to provide that no parish council should be entrusted with powers under the Act unless it represented a certain population.
§ MR. JORDANsaid the noble Lord would be well advised to withdraw his
§ Amendment. He seemed to be nervous about the extravagance of the parish councils, but if they had no money they would not be able to build crematoria. The noble Lord answered himself, because he said the parish councils would have no rating power to meet such expenditure, and if they had no rating power they could not expend the money.
§ MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)said if the provisions had been mandatory he could have understood the objection of the noble Lord, but the Bill was only an enabling Bill, and therefore the objection of the noble Lord did not apply at all. The truth of the matter was that a Scotch debate might often be dull, but it was never ridiculous until Englishmen interfered.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 249; Noes, 104 (Division List, No. 281.)
1557| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Colville, John | Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.) |
| Aguew, Sir Andrew Noel | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Craig, Robert Hunter | Grant, Corrie |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Crombie, John William | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) |
| Anstruther, H. T. | Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Cullinan, J. | Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS. Edm'nds |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Dalkeith, Earl of | Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Daly, James | Grenfell, William Henry |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Groves, James Grimble |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Denny, Colonel | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton |
| Balfour, Maj K. R. (Christchurch | Dickson, Charles Scott | Guthrie, Walter Murray |
| Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Hammond, John |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Dillon, John | Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) | Donelan, Captain A. | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Doogan, P. C. | Harmsworth, R. Leicester |
| Bell, Richard | Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Harris, Frederick Leverton |
| Blake, Edward | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Haslett, Sir James Horner |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Duncan, J. Hastings | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- |
| Boland, John | Dunn, Sir William | Helme, Norval Watson |
| Bond, Edward | Edwards, Frank | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. |
| Brigg, John | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Henderson, Alexander |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone | Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montague | Farrell, James Patrick | Hill, Arthur |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) |
| Bull, William James | Fenwick, Charles | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Hogg, Lindsay |
| Burns, John | Ffrench, Peter | Holland, William Henry |
| Burt, Thomas | Finch, George H. | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside |
| Caldwell, James | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Horniman, Frederick John |
| Cameron, Robert | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Hoult, Joseph |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Fitzroy, Hon. Ed ward Algernon | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil |
| Cawley, Frederick | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Fuller, J. M. F. | Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Galloway, William Johnson | Johnston, William (Belfast) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Johnstone Heywood (Sussex) |
| Collings, Rt. Hn. Jesse | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Joicey, Sir James |
| Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | Spear, John Ward |
| Kearley, Hudson E. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R (Northants |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. | Stevenson, Francis L. |
| Kinloch, Sir John George S. | O'Malley, William | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Knowles, Lees | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Laurie, Lieut.- General | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Law, Andrew Bonar | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Strachey, Edward |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Parker, Gilbert | Sullivan, Donal |
| Lecky, Rt. Hn. Wm. Edw. H. | Parkes, Ebenezer | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Partington, Oswald | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Leigh, Sir Joseph | Paulton, James Mellor | Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings) |
| Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S. | Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) | Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Lloyd-George, David | Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham) | Tomkinson, James |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Lowe, Francis William | Price, Robert John | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent) | Purvis, Robert | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Lundon, W. | Rankin, Sir James | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Rea, Russell | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.) |
| M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Reckitt, Harold James | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| M'Crae, George | Reddy, M. | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne) |
| M'Govern, T. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Manners, Lord Cecil | Redmond, William (Clare) | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe | Reid, James (Greenock) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. | Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Rickett, J. Compton | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Milton, Viscount | Rigg, Richard | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson | Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid) |
| Mooney, John J. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Robinson, Brooke | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose) | Roe, Sir Thomas | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.) |
| Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F. | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Ropner, Colonel Robert | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Myers, William Henry | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter | Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'ld |
| Newdigate, Francis Alexander | Russel, T. W. | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Nicholson, William Graham | Rutherford, John | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Schwann, Charles E. | |
| Norman, Henry | Simeon, Sir Barrington | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire | Renshaw and Mr. Wallace. |
| Nussey, Thomas Willans | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Kimber, Henry |
| Aird, Sir John | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Delany, William | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | Lawson, John Grant |
| Austin, Sir John | Duffy, William J. | Llewellyn, Evan Henry |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Field, William | Macartney, Rt. Hon. W. G. E. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Fisher, William Hayes | M'Fadden, Edward |
| Bignold, Arthur | Flower, Ernest | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Flynn, James Christopher | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. |
| Boyle, James | Forster, Henry William | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Butcher, John George | Gilhooly, James | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow | Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury) | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Gretton, John | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) |
| Caxendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire) | Gunter, Sir Robert | Murphy, John |
| Chapman, Edward | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Coddington, Sir William | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Helder, Augustus | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hudson, George Bickersteth | O'Dowd, John |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Joyce, Michael | O'Mara, James |
| Crean, Eugene | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Shaughnessy, P. C. |
| Penn John | Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thorn. Myles | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton |
| Percy, Earl | Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J. | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Pierpoint, Robert | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Whfte, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Plummer, Walter R. | Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tynesd. | Williams. Rt. Hn J Powell- (Birm. |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich | Wylie, Alexander |
| Pretyman, Ernest George | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Rash, Major Frederick, Carne | Stock, James Henry | Younger, William |
| Renwick, George | Stroyan, John | |
| Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Rochie, John | Tufnel, Lieut.-Col. Edward | Lord Hugh Cecil and Mr. |
| Samuel, Harry S. (Limehonse) | Warde, Colonel C. E. | Banbury. |
§ EARL PERCYsaid he desired to move in line 3, after the word "burgh," to insert "of more than 10,000 inhabitants." It was quite true that the clause was not mandatory, but merely permissive, but it was ridiculous to give power to a parish council to build a crematorium which had no power to raise the necessary money. Every parish of 10,000 inhabitants would, however, have power to raise sufficient money to cover any reasonable expenditure, and he ventured to think that the Amendment might be accepted.
§
Amendment proposed—
After the word 'burgh,' to insert the words 'of more than ten thousand inhabitants.'"—(Earl Percy.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words fee there inserted."
§ LORD HUGH CECILsaid he could not conceive a more slovenly or clumsy way of legislating than passing a Bill giving all kinds of powers to an authority without inquiring whether that authority could use them or not. The hon. Member for South Tyrone conceived that because he represented an Irish constituency he was entitled to reprove Englishmen for discussing Scottish matters, but it was very difficult to accept that view. At any rate, hon. Members who understood Scottish institutions should have some regard to making the Bill a proper measure. No information had been given as to why his noble friend's Amendment should not be accepted, and up to the present they had not been treated to anything but severe silence, just as if, in discussing the powers of a parish council, they were trespassing on sacred ground, on which It was almost profane to enter. He hoped they would have a proper and 1558 respectful answer to the argument of his noble friend.
§ *MR. CORRIE GRANT (Warwickshire, Rugby)said there was one condition which the House always insisted upon, and that was that when an hon. Member took part in a discussion he should have some elementary knowledge of the subject. The noble Lord who complained that the Amendment had been treated with severe silence said that the parish councils would have no power to provide funds for erecting crematoria.
§ LORD HUGH CECILIt was stated in the last debate.
§ *MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid the statement was inaccurate. If the noble Lord had taken the trouble to inform himself on the matter, as he ought to have done before criticising the Bill, he would have found that every parish council had power to raise money by loan for certain purposes.
§ LORD HUGH CECILasked what was the limit.
§ *MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid he declined to turn the House of Commons into an elementary school-room.
§ LORD HUGH CECILsaid the hon. Gentleman accused him of being ignorant of the subject, but he himself would also appear to be ignorant of it.
§ *MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that might be; but some Members of the House would, at any rate, know that he had given a great deal of attention to these matters. It seemed to him that the ignorance of some hon. Members was extraordinary. He only rose to make the suggestion that as this was a 1559 practical discussion, he did not think hon. Members had a right to get up and expect to be instructed in details with which they ought to have acquainted themselves beforehand.
§ MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWEN (Kent, Tunbridge)said he thought the position taken up by the hon. Member who had just spoken was very extraordinary. What had happened was that the hon. Member who introduced the new clause himself stated that the smaller parish councils would not have sufficient rating power to enable them to build crematoria. That was the only fact they had.
§ *MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that what had been stated was that there were some parish councils so small that they would not have the power of raising the necessary funds, but that a very large proportion of the parish councils would.
§ MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWENsaid he was dealing with the fact as it had been
§ stated by the hon. Member who introduced the clause. The clause extended the Bill to Scotland, and surely hon. Members had a right to discuss whether the means proposed were really adequate or not. They had been told that a large number of the parish councils would not be able to make use of the Act; why, then, should they be included. For his part, he would support the Amendment to limit the application of the Act to such authorities as could usefully make use of it.
§ MR. RENSHAWsaid he would appeal to the House to support the clause in the form in which it had been read a second time. There were grave objections in practice to putting in the Bill a limitation of population.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 88; Noes, 268. (Division List No. 282.)
1563| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.) | Hammond, John | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'd | Penn, John |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Hill, Arthur | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead) | Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Butcher, John George | Johnstone, Heywood- (Sussex | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Caldwell, James | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W (Salop. | Renwick, George |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A(Glasgow | Kimber, Henry | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Knowles, Lees | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Lawson, John Grant | Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Spencer, E. (W. Bromwich) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk |
| Delany, William | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Stock, James Henry |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Lundon, W. | Stroyan, John |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W G Ellison | Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxf'dU.) |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Macdona, John Gumming | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H. |
| Finch, George H. | Maconochie, A. W. | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Fisher, William Hayes | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E (Taunton |
| FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Flower, Ernest | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd |
| Forster, Henry William | Murphy, J. | White, Patrick (Meath, N.) |
| Galloway, Wm. Johnson | Myers, William Henry | |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury) | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Earl Percy and Mr. Griffith- |
| Grenfell, William Henry | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Boscawen. |
| Gunter, Sir Robert | Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood. Capt. Sir Alex F. | Anson, Sir William Reynell | Austin, Sir John |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Anstruther, H. T. | Bain, Colonel James Robert |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Ashton, Thomas Gair | Baird, John George Alexander |
| Aird, Sir John | Atherley-Jones, L. | Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Balfour, Maj. K R (Christchurch |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Grant, Corrie | Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) |
| Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y) | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds | Newdigate, Francis Alexander |
| Bell, Richard | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) |
| Bill, Charles | Groves, James Grimble | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Blake, Edward | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Norman, Henry |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hain, Edward | Norton, Captain Cecil Wm. |
| Boland, John | Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Bond, Edward | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Harris, Fredk. Leverton | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) | Haslett, Sir James Homer | O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W. |
| Boyle, James | Hay, Hon. Claude George | O'Doherty, William |
| Brigg, John | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | O'Dowd, John |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir A. D. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Helme, Norval Watson | O'Kelly, James (Rosc'mm'n,N. |
| Burns, John | Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Chas. H. | O'Malley, William |
| Burt, Thomas | Henderson, Alexander | O'Mara, James |
| Cameron, Robert | Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) | Parker, Gilbert |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Hogg, Lindsay | Partington, Oswald |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Holland, Wm. Henry | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire | Horniman, Frederick John | Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Hoult, Joseph | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hozier, Hn. Jas. Henry Cecil | Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Price, Robert John |
| Chapman, Edward | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edw. |
| Coddington, Sir Wm. | Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies | Purvis, Robert |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Jacoby, James Alfred | Pym, C. Guy |
| Collings, Rt. Hn. Jesse | Johnston, Wm. (Belfast) | Rankin, Sir James |
| Colville, John | Joicey, Sir James | Rea, Russell |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Jones, David Brynm'r (Swans'a | Reckett, Harold James |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) | Reddy, M. |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Jordon, Jeremiah | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Crean, Eugene | Joyce, Michael | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Crombie, John William | Kearley, Hudson E. | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Kennedy, Patrick James | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Kenyon, James (Lancs, Bury) | Ridley, Hn M. W. (Stalybridge) |
| Cullinan, J. | Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth | Rigg, Richard |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Kitson, Sir James | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Daly, James | Lambert, George | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) |
| Denny, Colonel | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Robinson, Brooke |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Law, Andrew Bonar | Roche, John |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Dillon, John | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lecky, Rt. Hn. Wm. Edw. H. | Ropner, Col. Robert |
| Doogan, P. C. | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Russell, T. W. |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Rutherford, John |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Leng, Sir John | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Duffy, William J. | Lewis, John Herbert | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Lock wood, Lt.-Col. A. R. | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Dunn, Sir Wm. | Lough, Thomas | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Edwards, Frank | Lowe, Francis William | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidst'e) | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | M'Crae, George | Smith, H C (North'mb. T'nes'de |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | M'Fadden, Edward | Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | M'Govern, T. | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Mappin, Sir Frdk. Thorpe | Spear, John Ward |
| Ffrench, Peter | Mather, William | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (North'ts |
| Field, William | Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Meysey-Thomson, Sir H. M. | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Strachey, Edward |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. | Sullivan. Donal |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Milton, Viscount | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Thomas, David Alf red (Merth'r |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Mooney, John J. | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings. |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Morgan, David J. (Walthams'w | Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gow'r |
| Garfit, William | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Thomson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N. |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Morrell, George Herbert | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F. | Tomkinson, James |
| Gore, Hn G R. C. Ormsby-(Salop | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Williams, Rt. Hn J Powell-(Birm | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord | Wylie, Alexander |
| Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. | Willox, Sir John Archibald | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Warr, Augustus Frederick | Wills, Sir Frederick | Younger, William |
| Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) | Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) | |
| White, Luke (York, E. R.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne) | Wilson-Todd, Wm H. (Yorks.) | Mr. Renshaw and Mr. |
| Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath | Wallace. |
| Whitmore, Charles Algernon | Wolff, Gastav Wilhelm | |
| Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd |
§ MR. SCOTT DICKSONThe clause as it at present stands, that "the expression 'burial authority' shall mean the parish council or town council of any parish or burgh, as defined in Sections 2 and 3 of 'Burial Grounds (Scotland) Act, 1855,'" is not quite accurate. Neither of these bodies are defined in these sections. I propose to leave out the words "defined in Sections 2 and 3 of" for the purpose of substituting "as the case may be, vested with the powers and duties conferred by."
§
Amendment proposed—
To leave out the words 'defined in sections two and three of,' and insert the words 'the case may be vested with the powers and duties conferred by.'"—(Mr. Solicitor General for Scotland.)
§ Question, "That the words 'defined in Sections 2 and 3 of' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
§ Question put, "That the words 'the case may be vested with the powers and duties conferred by' be there inserted."
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 309; Noes, 51. (Division List No. 283.)
1567| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F. | Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Ffrench, Peter |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire | Finch, George H. |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Cawley, Frederick | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Aird, Sir John | Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- |
| Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond |
| Anson, Sir Wm. Reynell | Channing, Francis Allston | Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. A. |
| Anstruther, H. T. | Chapman, Edward | Flannery, Sir Fortescue |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Fletcher, Sir Henry |
| Ashton, Thomas Gain | Coghill, Douglas Harry | Flower, Ernest |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Flynn, James Christopher |
| Austin, Sir John | Colville, John | Forster, Henry Wm. |
| Bain, Col. James Robert | Compton, Lord Alwyne | Foster, Sir W. (Derby County) |
| Baird, John G. Alexander | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Fuller, J. M. F. |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Galloway, William Johnson |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Craig, Robert Hunter | Garfit, William |
| Balfour, Maj. K. R. (Christchch | Crombie, John William | Goddard, Daniel Ford |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. |
| Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) | Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Gore, Hn G R C. Ormsby-(Salop) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Crossley, Sir Savile | Grant, Corrie |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Dalkeith, Earl of | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) |
| Bell, Richard | Daly, James | Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds |
| Bignold, Arthur | Denny, Colonel | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) |
| Blake, Edward | Dickson, Charles Scott | Grenfell, Wm. Henry |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Greville, Hon. Ronald |
| Bond, Edward | Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cock field | Gretton, John |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Donelan, Captain A. | Groves, James Grimble |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Doogan, P. C. | Gunter, Sir Robert |
| Brand, Hon. Arthur G. | Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton |
| Brigg, John | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Hain, Edward |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Duncan, J. Hastings | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nd'ry |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Dunn, Sir Wm. | Hammond, John |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Edwards, Frank | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd |
| Burns, John | Elibank, Master of | Harms worth, R. Leicester |
| Burt, Thomas | Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne | Haslett, Sir James Homer |
| Butcher, John George | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Hay, Hon. Claude George |
| Caldwell, James | Fenwick, Charles | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- |
| Cameron, Robert | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasg'w | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r | Helme, Norval Watson |
| Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. | Milton, Viscount | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Henderson, Alexander | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Samuel, Harry, S. (Limehouse) |
| Hermon-Hodge, Robert T. | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. M. |
| Hill, Arthur | Mooney, John J. | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead) | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow | Shipman, Dr. John |
| Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) | Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Hogg, Lindsay | Morley, Chas. (Breconshire) | Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire). |
| Holland, Wm. Henry | Morrell, George Herbert | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F | Smith, H C (N'rth'mb. Tyneside |
| Horniman, Frederick John | Morton, Arthur H. A (Deptford) | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Houldsworth, Sir W. Henry | Morton, Ed w. J. C. (Devonport) | Spear, John Ward |
| Hoult, Joseph | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R Northants |
| Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Myers, William Henry | Spencer, E. (W. Bromwich) |
| Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Newdigate, Francis Alexander | Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) |
| Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N. | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | Norman, Henry | Stock, James Henry |
| Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Norton, Captain Cecil Wm. | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Stroyan, John |
| Johnston, William (Belfast) | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley |
| Joicey, Sir James | O'Doherty, Wm. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Jones, David Brynm'r (Swansea | O'Malley, William | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Uni. |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Jordan, Jeremiah | Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham) | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Kearley, Hudson | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings |
| Kennedy, Patrick James | Parker, Gilbert | Thomas, J A (Gl'morgan, Gower- |
| Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury. | Parkes, Ebenezer | Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) | Partington, Oswald | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Kimber, Henry | Paulton, James Mellor | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth | Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) | Tomkinson, James |
| Kitson, Sir James | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray. |
| Knowles, Lees | Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Penn, John | Tufnell, Lt-Col. Edward |
| Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Percy, Earl | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. |
| Lawson, John Grant | Perks, Robert Wm. | Warde, Col. C. E. |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Pierpoint, Robert | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H. | Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E (Taunton |
| Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Plummer, Walter R. | Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.) |
| Leigh, Sir Joseph | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Wentworth, B. C. Vernon- |
| Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Price, Robert John | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L. |
| Leng, Sir John | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Purvis, Robert | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne) |
| Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Pym, C. Guy | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Rankin, Sir James | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Rea, Russell | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth. |
| Lough, Thomas | Reckitt Harold James | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Lowe, Francis William | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale | Reid, James (Greenock) | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Lowther, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Kent) | Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries | Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk, Mid.) |
| Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Renwick, George | Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W. R.). |
| Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E. | Rickitt, J. Compton | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Macdona, John Gumming | Ridley, Hon. M. W. (St'lybr'dge | Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.) |
| Maconochie, A. W. | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath, |
| M'Crae, George | Rigg, Richard | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| M'Killop, James (Stirlingshre) | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd, |
| Majendie, James A. H. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Malcolm, Ian | Robinson, Brooke | Wylie, Alexander |
| Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe | Roe, Sir Thomas | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East). |
| Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W F. | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye | Younger, William |
| Maxwell, W. J. H Dumfries-sh. | Ropner, Col. Robert | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Mildmay. Francis Bingham | Russell, T. W. | Mr. Renshaw and Mr. |
| Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Fredk, F. | Rutherford, John | Wallace. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Field, William |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Cullinan, J. | Gilhooly, James |
| Boland, John | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. |
| Boyle, James | Delany, William | Harris, Frederick Leverton |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Duffy, William J. | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Coddington, Sir William | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.). |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Farrell, James Patrick | Hudson, George Bickersteth |
| Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Roche, John |
| Lambert, George | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford) |
| Laurie, Lt.-General | O'Dowd, John | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Lundon, W. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Warner, Courtenay T. |
| MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| M'Fadden, Edward | O'Mara, James | |
| M'Govern T. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Murphy, John | Power, Patrick Joseph | Mr. Crean and Thomas |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | O'Donnell. |
| Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Reddy, M. | |
| O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Md | Redmond, William (Clare) |
§ Clause, as amended, added.
§ *MR. LEES KNOWLES (Salford, W.)The new clause which I have now the honour to move must commend itself to the House. It is—
No crematorium shall be constructed nearer to any dwelling house than two hundred yards, except with the consent in writing of the owner, lessee, and occupier of such house.I think it would be very objectionable to place a crematory close to a private residence. It would offend the eye with its huge chimney, and offend the ear by the tolling of the bell. Moreover, a householder does not care to see funerals constantly passing close to his house. Then from a public point of view a crematory erected in a suburb might cause a distinct interference with the systematic growth of the locality, and our suburbs require every protection. I do not say that 200 yards is a proper distance, and I would be quite open to accept an amendment. I do not know how many of these crematories we are going to have placed in the land, especially if small public bodies are to have the power to raise money for building them. I do not say that they will necessarily be placed next to private dwellings or in our suburbs. I can imagine them being used as landmarks, and a crematory being erected on the heights of Snowdon, or of Helvellyn, or of Ben Nevis, or even on the top of Croagh Patrick. The 200 yards may appear to be an arbitrary distance, but I have taken it from Section 10 of the Cemeteries Clauses Act of 1847. In considering this matter I was very much interested in reading the report on the
| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Allan, William (Gateshead) | Anson, Sir William Reynell |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud) | Anstruther, H. T. |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Allsopp, Hon. George | Ashton, Thomas Gair |
§ Sanitary Condition of the Labouring Classes of Great Britain in 1843, which contains much information in regard to cemeteries. Great consideration was given to the situation in which cemeteries should be placed; and the report stated that, in general, public cemeteries should be placed to the east, north, or north-east of our towns, because the south and south-west winds were usually moist, and would carry the putrefactive gases over the town more readily than east, north, or north-east winds, which were dry. The same consideration ought to be given in regard to the situation of crematories. I beg to move—
§ New Clause (Site of Crematorium) brought up, and read the first time.—(Mr. Lees Knowles.)
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (SIR EDWARD CARSON,) Dublin UniversitySo far as the Government is concerned we have no objection to this new clause. It is in accordance with the Cemeteries Clauses Act which raises exactly the same question, and it would be well to have a uniform area. I desire, however, to enter a protest against these places being called crematories, as they might be mixed up with creameries in Ireland.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Aves, 293; Noes, 57. (Division List No. 284.)
1571| Atherley-Jones, L. | Flower, Ernest | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Flynn, James Christopher | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Bain, Col. James Robert | Forster, Henry William | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey | Fuller, J. M. F. | M'Arthur, William (Cornw'll) |
| Balfoar, Maj. K R (Christchurch | Galloway, Wm. Johnson | M'Crae, George |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Garfit, William | M'Govern, T. |
| Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) | Goddard, Daniel Ford | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Grant, Corrie | Malcolm, Ian |
| Bell, Richard | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Greene, Sir E W (B'y S Edm'nds) | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F |
| Blake, Edward | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Grenfell, Wm. Henry | Mellor, Rt. Hon. John Wm. |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Gretton, John | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Brigg, John | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) | Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Fred. G. |
| Brookfield, Col. Montagu | Groves, James Grimble | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Gunter, Sir Robert | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Burt, Thomas | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Mooney, John J. |
| Butcher, John George | Hain, Edward | Morgan, David J. (Walthamst.) |
| Caldwell, James | Hamilton, Marq of (L'donderry | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Cameron, Robert | Hammond, John | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A (Glasgow | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Carlile, William Walter | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Myers, William Henry |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Helme, Norval Watson | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N. |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Henderson, Alexander | Norman, Henry |
| Chapman, Edward | Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hill, Arthur | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Coddington, Sir William | Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) | O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | O'Doherty, William |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hogg, Lindsay | O'Malley, William |
| Colville, John | Holland, William Henry | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside | Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham) |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Horniman, Frederick John | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Hoult, Joseph | Partington, Oswald |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Hozier, Hon. James Henry C. | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Waiden) |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Pease, Sir J. W. (Durham) |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Joicey, Sir James | Penn, John |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Jones, David B. (Swansea) | Percy, Earl |
| Daly, James | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Perks, Robert William |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Jordan, Jeremiah | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Denny, Colonel | Kearley, Hudson E. | Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W (Salop) | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Kimber, Henry | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Price, Robert John |
| Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edw. |
| Donelan, Capt. A. | Kitson, Sir James | Purvis, Robert |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm. | Rea, Russell |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Law, Andrew Bonar | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Dunn, Sir William | Lawson, John Grant | Redmond, J. E. (Waterford) |
| Edwards, Frank | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Elibank, Master of | Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. E. H. | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Emmott, Alfred | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Renwick, George |
| Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone) | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge |
| Fenwick, Charles | Leng, Sir John | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Lewis, John Herbert | Rigg, Richard |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Finch, George H. | Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S. | Robinson, Brooke |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lough, Thomas | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Lowe, Francis William | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Ropner, Col. Robert |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent) | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W. |
| Fletcher, Sir Henry | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th) | Rutherford, John |
| Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne- |
| Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles | Sullivan, Donal | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Schwann, Charles E. | Taylor, Theodore Cooke | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Seton-Karr, Henry | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Sharpe, William Edw. T. | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Shipman, Dr. John G. | Thomas, J A (Gl'm'rgan, Gower) | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Simeon, Sir Barrington | Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh. | Thorburn, Sir Walter | Wilson, Fred W. (Norfolk, Mid. |
| Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Thornton, Percy M. | Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W. R.) |
| Smith, H C (Northmb, Tyneside | Tomkinson, James | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Smith, James Parker (Lanarks | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Soares, Ernest J. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Spear, John Ward | Tufnell, Lt.-Col. Edward | Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd |
| Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R. (North'nts) | Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) | Wallace, Robert | Wyhe, Alexander |
| Stevenson, Francis S. | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
| Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart | Warde, Col. C. E. | Younger, William |
| Stock, James Henry | Warr, Augustus Frederick | |
| Stone, Sir Benjamin | Wason, E. (Clackmannan) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Strachey, Edward | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts. | Mr. Knowles and Mr. |
| Stroyan, John | White, Luke (York, E. R.) | Griffith-Bowscawen. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Austin, Sir John | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Rasch, Maj. Frederic Carne |
| Bignold, Arthur | Joyce, Michael | Reddy, M. |
| Boland, John | Kennedy, Patrick James | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Boyle, James | Labouchere, Henry | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Brand, Hon. Arthur G. | Lambert, George | Roche, John |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lundon, W. | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Cullinan, J. | M'Fadden, Edward | Sinclair, Louis (Romford |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Murphy, John | Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E. Taunton |
| Delany, William | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, S.) | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Doogan, P. C. | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid | Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd |
| Duffy, William J. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | White, Patrick (Meath, North). |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | |
| Farrell, James Patrick | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Field, William | O'Dowd, John | Mr. Crean and Mr. Thos. |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | O'Donnell. |
| Greene, Walford D (Wednesb'y | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) | |
| Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs | O'Mara, James |
§ Clause added.
§ MR. LEES KNOWLESmoved to insert the following clause—
A burial authority may accept a donation of land for the purpose of a crematorium, and a donation of money or other property for enabling them to acquire, construct, or maintain a crematorium.He said the clause dealt with the law of mortmain, but he did not think it
§ needed any explanation; at any rate, he would not trouble the House with one.
§ Another clause (Donations of land, &c.)—(Mr. Lees Knowles)—brought up, and read the first time.
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That the clause be read a second time."
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 299; Noes,. 51. (Division List No. 285.)
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Malcolm, Ian |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe |
| Burt, Thomas | Grant, Corrie | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. |
| Butcher, John George | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H E (Wigt'n |
| Caldwell, James | Greene, Sir E. W. B'ry S. Edmnds | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh- |
| Cameron, Robert | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Mellor, Rt. Hn. John William |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow | Grenfell, William Henry | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Carlile, William Walter | Gretton, John | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Fredk. G. |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Griffith, Ellis J. | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Cawley, Frederick | Groves, James Grimble | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Gunter, Sir Robert | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Mooney, John J. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hain, Edward | Morgan, David J. (Walthm'w |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Hammond, John | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Hardy, Laurence (Kent Ashf'd | Morley, Chas. (Breconshire) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Harmsworth, R. (Leicester) | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Chapman, Edward | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F. |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford |
| Coddington, Sir William | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Helme, Norval Watson | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Colville, John | Henderson, Alexander | Myers, William Henry |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter | Newdigate, Francis Alexander |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Hill, Arthur | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E. | Norman, Henry |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Hogg, Lindsay | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Holland, William Henry | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Horniman, Frederick John | O'Doherty, William |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | O'Malley, William |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Daly, James | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Denny, Colonel | Jones, David (Brynmr Swansea | Partington, Oswald |
| Dewar, T. R (T'rH'ml'ts, S. Geo.) | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Jordan, Jeremiah | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Kearley, Hudson E. | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury) | Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop | Penn, John |
| Dillon, John | Kimber, Henry | Percy, Earl |
| Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth | Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Kitson, Sir James | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore | Laurie, Lieut-General | Price, Robert John |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Lawson, John Grant | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Dunn, Sir William | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Purvis, Robert |
| Edwards, Frank | Lecky, Rt. Hn. Wm. Edw. H. | Rankin, Sir James |
| Elibank, Master of | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Rea, Russell |
| Emmott, Alfred | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Leng, Sir John | Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries) |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Lewis, John Herbert | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Renwick, George |
| Fenwick, Charles | Lloyd-George, David | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge |
| Ffrench, Peter | Lough, Thomas | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green) |
| Field, William | Lowe, Francis William | Rigg, Richard |
| Finch, George H. | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Robinson, Brooke |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lowther, Rt. Hon. Jas. (Kent | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter |
| Fletcher, Sir Henry | Macdona, John Cumming | Russell, T. W. |
| Flower, Ernest | Maconochie, A. W. | Rutherford, John |
| Forster, Henry William | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | M'Crae, George | Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles- |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | M'Govern, T. | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Galloway, William Johnson | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) |
| Garfit, William | Majendie, James A. H. | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire | Thornton, Percy M. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Tollemache, Henry James | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tynesi'e | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Soares, Ernest J. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid |
| Spear, John Ward | Tufnell, Lt-Col. Edward | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R. |
| Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants | Vincent, Col Sir C. E. H (Sheffield | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk | Wallace, Robert | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart | Warde, Colonel C. E. | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Stock, James Henry | Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Stone, Sir Benjamin | Warr, Augustus Frederick | Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Hudd'rsfid |
| Strachey, Edward | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley | Weir, James Galloway | Wylie, Alexander |
| Sullivan, Donal | Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts. | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Taylor, Theodore Cooke | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- | Younger, William |
| Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr | White, Luke (York, E. R.) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-un-Lyne | |
| Thomas, J. A. Glamorgan Gow'r | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Thompson, Dr E C (Monaghan N | Whitmore, Charles Algernon | Knowles and Mr. Griffith- |
| Thorburn, Sir Walter | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | Boscawen. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | O'Mara, James |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Joyce, Michael | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Kennedy, Patrick James | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Lambert, George | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Boland, John | Law, Andrew Bonar | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Lundon, W. | Reddy, M. |
| Cogan, Denis J. | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Redmond, Wm. (Clare) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | M'Fadden, Edward | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Cullinan, J. | Murphy, John | Roche, John |
| Delany, William | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Duffy, William J. | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton) |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury | O'Dowd, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Green, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Mr. Crean and Mr. Thomas |
| Hay den, John Patrick | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. | O'Donnell. |
§ Clause added.
§ MR. MACARTNEY (Antrim, S.)moved the following clause—
In the application of this Act to Ireland the expression 'burial authority' shall mean the urban sanitary authority or the rural sanitary authority as defined in Sections 22 and 33 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898; the expressions 'the Local Government Board' and 'the Secretary of State' shall mean the Local Government Board (Ireland).The only argument which he thought it necessary to advance in support of this clause was that the reasons which rendered it desirable that crematoriums should be established in England and Scotland applied equally to Ireland. He desired to correct a misapprehension which arose from a statement made in the Grand Committee. An hon. Member there said there were no burial boards in Ireland. But in that he was wrong, for boards had existed since 1576 1856 which exercised the powers of burial boards in the same way as in England and Scotland.
§ Another clause (Definitions (Ireland)—(Mr. Macartney)—brought up, and read the first time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."
SIR WALTER FOSTER (Derbyshire, Ilkeston)said that, being in charge of the Bill, he desired to correct the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite as to what took place in the Grand Committee. There was no question as to the non-existence of burial boards in Ireland. It was never the intention of anyone connected with the Bill to extend its provisions to Ireland. He objected in the strongest way to its being extended to that country; 1577 he had the greatest sympathy with those who objected to the extension, and he hoped his hon. friends on that side of the House would assist him in resisting the proposal. Ireland had unfortunately a smaller population than any other part of the United Kingdom. It was only in dense populations that the Bill was desirable in the interests of public health, and he had no desire to force it upon any community, the greater portion of which was opposed to it.
§ MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford)could not conceive it possible that the House of Commons would force the Bill on Ireland against what was practically the opinion of the whole of the people of the country. The hon. Member who had moved the Amendment was no doubt an Irishman, but if a division were taken it would be seen that there was an overwhelming majority of opinion of Irish Members sitting in every quarter of the House against the Bill. It was never seriously suggested before the Committee that it should be extended to Ireland, and when an Amendment was moved to extend it to Scotland he opposed it, very largely on the ground that the matter had not been discussed by the Committee, and because he did not think it fair at the last moment to spring the proposal upon the Committee, especially as he had not had an opportunity of ascertaining what was the view of the majority of Scotch Members. He was, therefore, perfectly consistent in taking the same position now in regard to Ireland. It seemed to him absolutely impossible to entertain the proposal seriously. The application of the Bill to Ireland would undoubtedly for most deeply resented by an overwhelming majority of the people. It would be a shock to their feelings. Anyone who knew the country knew that the religious feeling of the great majority would be outraged by the application of the Bill to their country, and without asking whether that feeling was reasonable or not, it would be a monstrous thing at the last moment if this was forced upon Ireland against the protest of the overwhelming majority of Irish Members, that he trusted the House of Commons would have more fairness and more common sense than to attempt to do anything of the kind.
§ SIR EDWARD CARSONI hope the House will reject the Amendment. Let me remind hon. Members what is the real object of this Bill. Cremation is existent in England and Scotland, it can be carried on without any kind of interference by any authority, and I say it is a matter of importance, seeing that the practice is growing, that there should be some supervision by a Government department of the conditions under which bodies are burned. But no such necessity exists in Ireland. I do not believe there is a single crematorium in that country, neither is there any system of burning bodies. If that is so, why should we, in the face of the opposition of the greater part of the Irish Members, burden the Bill by including Ireland? Do not let us allow ourselves to be led away from what are the real objects of the Bill by attempting to apply to Ireland a state of affairs in no way applicable to that country.
§ *MR. HEMPHILLjoined in the protest of the right hon. Gentleman opposite against the extension of this Bill to Ireland, where such a course would create the greatest possible revulsion of feeling. He had never heard of a single case of cremation in Ireland, although the practice was common in England. They ought not, at the instance of a small handful of Members, make a change which would be so repugnant to the feelings of the Irish people.
§ MR. MORRIS (Galway), speaking as an Irishman, urged the House not to accept the proposal, which was positively repugnant to the ideas of the Irish people, who possessed strong reverential, conscientious feelings on these questions. It was not the case that the reasons which justified the application of the Bill to England and Scotland applied equally to Ireland. There might be over-population in parts of the former countries, but in Ireland emigration was on the increase, and the population was decreasing. The least they could do for those who elected to remain in their native country was to ensure their decent burial in mother earth.
§ MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWENcould not understand the objection to the clause. The Bill was purely optional, 1579 and it was ridiculous to talk of forcing it on Ireland. How could they enforce a purely optional clause? They had been told that the Irish people did not want the Bill, but, after all, the object was merely to regulate the use of crematoria, and if, as was quite possible, one were ever set up in Ireland it ought to be subject to supervision in the same way as those in England and Scotland. He hoped his right hon. friend would press his clause to a division.
§ MR. BANBURYagreed with the last speaker. There was no desire to force anything disagreeable on Ireland, but they had been warned that by means of cremation crime might be concealed, and any legislation calculated to prevent the concealment of crime was equally good for England, Scotland, and Ireland. The Bill did not compel the establishment of crematoria; it simply provided for their proper supervision when set up. It was purely optional in its operation.
§ LORD HUGH CECILsaid he had listened with great attention to the remarks of the hon. Member for Waterford, and he was sure the House would desire to attach the utmost weight to the views of Irish representatives on Irish questions. But he would like to point out that this was not a Bill to establish crematoria in Ireland. The hon. Member's objection was really an objection to the practice of cremation, which, no doubt, was opposed to the ideas of the majority of the Irish people. But this
| AYES. | ||
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Dewar, T. R. (T'rH'ml'ts, S. Geo. | Greville, Hon. Ronald |
| Bain, Col. James Robert | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Hain, Edward |
| Baird, John George Alex. | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Hamilton, Marq of (L'donderry) |
| Balfour, Maj K. R (Christch'rch) | Dimsdale, Sir Joseph C. | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd) |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. D. | Haslett, Sir James Horner |
| Barry, Sir F. T. (Windsor) | Doxford, Sir William T. | Henderson, Alexander |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter |
| Brymer, William Ernest | FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose- | Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich |
| Carlile, William Walter | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Flower, Ernest | Hoult, Joseph |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Galloway, William Johnson | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Garfit, William | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond. | Hudson, George Bickersteth |
| Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow) | Godson, Sir Augustus F. | Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Graham, Henry Robert | Johnston, William (Belfast) |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Kimber, Henry |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS Edm'nds | Laurie, Lt.-General |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Leng, Sir John |
| Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Denny, Col. | Gretton, John | Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent). |
§ Bill did not come within the scope of that objection. Still, the objection of hon. Members below the gangway opposite were much more reasonable than that put forward by hon. Gentlemen above the gangway. As to the point of population, the Bill had been extended to Orkney and Shetland, so that it did not lie in the mouths of the promoters of the Bill to say that it should not be extended to Ireland. There were portions of that country which were very populous indeed—Belfast, for instance. There was no opposition to the Bill in the north of Ireland. No doubt in three parts of the country the Bill would be a dead letter, but that was no reason why it should not be applied to the neighbourhood of Belfast, as well as to Glasgow. He could understand the opposition of the Irish Members below the gangway, but the arguments of those above the gangway deserved no respect whatever.
§ It being half-past Five of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded to interrupt the Business.
§ Whereupon Sir WALTER FOSTER rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put"; but Mr. Speaker withheld his assent, because he was of opinion that the House was prepared to come to an immediate decision without that motion.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 113; Noes, 251. (Division List No. 286.)
| Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th) | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) |
| Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Pierpoint, Robert | Thornton, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Maconochie, A. W. | Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard | Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield |
| M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Warde, Col. C. E. |
| M'Laren, Chas. Benjamin | Purvis, Robert | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. | Rankin, Sir James | Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.) |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Remnant, James Farquharson | Willoughby de Eresby. Lord |
| Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Roe, Sir Thomas | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Morrell, George Herbert | Ropner, Col. Robert | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Sadler, Col. Samuel A. | Wylie, Alexander |
| Murray, Col. W. (Bath) | Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles | Younger, William |
| Myers, William Henry | Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Newdigate, Francis A. | Seton-Karr, Henry | Mr. Macartney and Mr. Griffith-Boscawen. |
| Nicol, Donal Ninian | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Cullinan, J. | Horniman, Frederick John |
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Cust, Henry John C. | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Hy. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Daly, James | Jessel, Capt. Herb. Merton |
| Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud | Dalziel, James Henry | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Joicey, Sir James |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Delany, William | Jones, David B. (Swansea) |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Dickson, Charles Scott | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Dillon, John | Jordan, Jeremiah |
| Austin, Sir John | Donelan, Captain A. | Joyce, Michael |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy | Doogan, P. C. | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Kennedy, Patrick James |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Donglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) | Kenyon, J. (Lancs., Bury) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Duffy, William J. | Keswick, William |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Duncan, J. Hastings | Kinloch, Sir John George S. |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol | Dunn, Sir William | Kitson, Sir James |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Edwards, Frank | Knowles, Lees |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Elibank, Master of | Lambert, George |
| Bignold, Arthur | Emmott, Alfred | Law, Andrew Bonar |
| Bigwood, James | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Lawson, John Grant |
| Blake, Edward | Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidst'ne | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Leigh, Sir Joseph |
| Boland, John | Farrell, James Patrick | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Boyle, James | Fenwick, Charles | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Brigg, John | Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith) | Llewellyn, Evan Henry |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r) | Lough, Thomas |
| Brookfield, Col. Montagu | Ffrench, Peter | Lowe, Francis William |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Field, William | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lundon, W. |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Fisher, William Hayes | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Burns, John | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. |
| Burt, Thomas | Fletcher, Sir Henry | M'Crae, George |
| Butcher, John George | Flynn, James Christopher | M'Fadden, Edward |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Fuller, J. M. F. | M'Govern, T. |
| Caldwell, James | Gilhooly, James | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire |
| Cameron, Robert | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. | Malcolm, Ian |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn J A. (Glasgow) | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe |
| Campbell, John (Armagh S.) | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Martin, Richard Biddulph |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Grant, Corrie | Mellor, Rt. Hon John William |
| Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Grenfell, William Henry | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Cawley, Frederick | Griffith, Ellis J. | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Cayzer, Sir Chas. Wm. | Groves, James Grimble | Mooney, John J. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Gunter, Sir Robert | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) |
| Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r.) | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Hammond, John | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) |
| Chapman, Edward | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Morley, Rt. Hn. J. (Montrose |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Morris, Hon. Martin H. F. |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Murphy, J. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hayden, John Patrick | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) |
| Colville, John | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir A. D. | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Helme, Norval Watson | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N. |
| Crean, Eugene | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Crombie, John Wm. | Hogg, Lindsay | Norman, Henry |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield Brightside | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Nussey, Thomas Willans | Redmond, Wm. (Clare) | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| O'Brien, Kendal (T'pp'r'ry Mid. | Reid, Sir J. T. (Dumfries) | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Renshaw, Charles Bine | Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings |
| O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Renwick, George | Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n, Gower |
| O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Richards, Henry Charles | Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N |
| O'Doherty, William | Rickett, J. Compton | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Rigg, Richard | Tomkinson, James |
| O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| O'Dowd, John | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Roche, John | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S) |
| O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W. | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| O'Malley, William | Round, James | Wason, E. (Clackmannan) |
| O'Mara, James | Russell, T. W. | Weir, James Galloway |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Rutherford, John | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham | Schwann, Charles E. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Shaw, Charles Edward (Stafford | White, Patrick (Meath, N.) |
| Partington, Oswald | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne |
| Paulton, James Mellor | Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Pease, Herbt, P. (Darlington) | Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Smith, H C (North'mb., T'neside | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Pease, Sir J. W. (Durham) | Smith, James P. (Lanarks.) | Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid |
| Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley | Soares, Ernest J. | Wilson, John (Durham Mid.) |
| Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Spear, John Ward | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Speneer, Rt. Hn C R (Northants.) | Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd |
| Price, Robert John | Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Rasch, Major Frederick Carne | Stock, James Henry | |
| Rea, Russell | Strachey, Edward | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Reddy, M. | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | Sir Walter Foster and |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Sullivan, Donal | Mr. Wallace. |
§ Further consideration deferred till Wednesday next.