HC Deb 30 June 1898 vol 60 cc743-51

Amendment proposed— Page 2, line 25, after the word 'Ireland' to insert the words 'or Wales.'"—(Mr. Gibson Bowles.)

MR. GIBSON BOWLES

If this Bill, with all its blessings or all its curses, is to apply to some parts of the United kingdom and not to others, undoubtedly we have to consider, in addition to the case of Ireland, the case of Wales. The First Lord of the Treasury has avowed that it ought to be applied to Ireland, and the only reason why he has not so applied it is that he is afraid of the Irish Vote. He is not afraid of the right honourable and learned Gentleman the Member for the Dublin University, but he is afraid that if he provokes the hostility of honourable Members from Ireland on she other side of the House, they may tear his Bill into rags and Matters. Now, what is the case as to Wales? If this Bill, with all its advantages, is not to apply to Ireland, why should it apply to Wales? I believe that in Wales there is a great amount of litigation. I have occasionally heard that in many parts of Wales there is a great deal of perjury. I do not accept that for a moment, but at any rate, whatever causes there may be for considering the separate claims of Ireland with reference to this Bill, there is an equally good case for the exemption of Wales. What is the case for the exemption of Ireland? The First Lord of the Treasury says that Irish Members oppose it, and that if its extension to Ireland were pressed the Irish Members might be expected to debate the Bill at considerable length. But, Sir, a large number of

the Welsh Members are opposed to the Bill, and I think their views ought to be respected. What their views may be with regard to Wales it remains for us to hear; but I move this Amendment in order to ascertain what the real views of the Government are with regard to his Bill. Do they believe in its principle or not? The right honourable Gentleman has already said that he dare not apply it to Ireland. Honourable Members from Wales would not be able to take up so much time in opposing the Bill, and therefore he cannot have the same fear is he had in the case of Ireland. I move this Amendment in order to obtain an explanation from the Government why the Bill should be applied to Wales and not to Ireland.

Amendment put and negatived.

Amendment proposed— Page 2, line 26, to leave out the words 'expiration of two months from the passing thereof,' and insert the words 'first day of January, One thousand eight hundred and ninety-nine.'"—(Mr. Gibson Bowles.)

MR. GIBSON BOWLES

It seems to me that the proper date for the Bill to come into operation would be the first day of January next year. That would allow time for the consideration of the Act by learned counsel who may have the task of defending prisoners, and, above all, time for prisoners or possible prisoners to make up their minds whether it would be advisable for them to take advantage of the Bill or not.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 186; Noes 56.—(Division List No. 179.)

AYES.
Allhusen, Augustus Henry E. Carlile, William Walter Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. Causton, Richard Knight Colomb, Sir John Charles R.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs) Compton, Lord Alwyne
Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness) Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbysh.) Cook, F. Lucas (Lambeth)
Baird, John George A. Cecil, E. (Hertford, E.) Cranborne, Viscount
Baker, Sir John Cecil, Lord H. (Greenwich) Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)
Balcarres, Lord Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)
Balfour, Rt.Hon.A.J. (Manc'r) Chamberlain,Rt.Hn. J. (Birm.) Dalrymple, Sir Charles
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) Davenport, W. Bromley-
Blundell, Colonel Henry Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Denny, Colonel
Bond, Edward Charrington, Spencer Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P.
Bousfield, William Robert Clare, Oetavius Leigh Digby, J. K. D. Wingfield-
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Clough, Walter Owen Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Brookfield, Montagu A. Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Fellowes, Hon. A. Edward
Bullard, Sir Harry Coghill, Douglas Harry Fergusson, RtHn.SirJ. (Manc'r)
Butcher, John George Cohen Benjamin Louis Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)
Finlay, Sir R. Bannatyne Labouchere, Henry Robinson, Brooke
Fisher, William Hayes Lafone, Alfred Roche, Hon. J. (E. Kerry)
Fletcher, Sir Henry Laurie, Lieut.-General Round, James
Flower, Ernest Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks) Russell, Gen. F. S. (Chelt'm)
Folkestone, Viscount Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Forwood, Rt. Hon. Sir A. B. Lees, Sir E. (Birkenhead) Rutherford, John
Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.) Legh, Hon. T. W. (Lanc) Seely, Charles Hilton
Finlay, Sir R. Bannatyne Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Sharpe, William Edward T.
Garfit, William Llewelyn, SirDillwyn-(Sw'ns'a) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Gibbons, J. Lloyd Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Smith, James P. (Lanarks)
Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. J. Loder, G. W. Erskine Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Godson, Sir Augustus F. Logan, John William Stanley, Lord (Lancs)
Goldsworthy, Major-General Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Stock, James Henry
Gordon, Hon. John E. Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l) Strauss, Arthur
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E. Lowe, Francis William Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Goschen,Rt.Hn.G.J.(St.Geo's) Lowles, John Sturt, Hon. Humphry N.
Goschen, G. J. (Sussex) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Graham, Henry Robert Lucas-Shadwell, William Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUny.)
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Macartney, W. G. Ellison Tennant, Harold John
Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) Maclure, Sir John William Thorburn, Walter
Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury) McArthur, C. (Liverpool) Thornton, Percy M.
Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs) McEwan, William Tollemache, Henry James
Gull, Sir Cameron McKillop, James Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
Haldane, Richard Burdon Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Hall, Sir Charles Mildmay, Francis Bingham Valentia, Viscount
Halsey, Thomas Frederick Milward, Colonel Victor Warkworth, Lord
Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G. Monckton, Edward Philip Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)
Hamond, Sir C. (Newcastle) More, Robert Jasper Wedderburn, Sir William
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W. Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.) Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Hatch, Ernest Frederick G. Morrell, George Herbert Wentworth, B. C. Vernon-
Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Hazell, Walter Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Williams, J. P. (Birm.)
Heath, James Murray, Col. W. (Bath) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord A. (Down) Newdigate, Francis Alexander Wills, Sir William Henry
Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S. Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Hobhouse, Henry O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wilson, J. W. (Worc'r, N.).
Hornby, William Henry Parkes, Ebenezer Wodehouse, E. R. (Bath)
Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Pease, Arthur (Darlington) Woodall, William
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Phillpotts, Captain Arthur Wylie, Alexander
Johnston, William (Belfast) Pryce-Jones, Edward Wyndham, George
Johnstone, J. H. (Sussex) Purvis, Robert Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.
Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire) Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Young, Commander (Berks,E.)
Kemp, George Renshaw, Charles Bine
Kenrick, William Richards, Henry Charles TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Kenyon, James Richardson, J. (Durham) Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Kinloch, Sir J. G. Smyth Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)
Knowles, Lees Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)
Allen, W. (Newc.-under-Lyme) Holden, Sir Angus Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Beresford, Lord Charles Horniman, Frederick John Stevenson, Francis S.
Billson, Alfred Leuty, Thomas Richmond Strachey, Edward
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Lough, Thomas Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Brigg, John Macaleese, Daniel Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)
Broadhurst, Henry MacNeill, John Gordon S. Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Burns, John M'Ghee, Richard Tully, Jasper
Caldwell, James Maddison, Fred. Ure, Alexander
Cawley, Frederick Molloy, Bernard Charles Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Channing, Francis Allston Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Daly, James Norton, Capt. Cecil William Williams, John C. (Notts)
Davitt, Michael Nussey, Thomas Willans Wilson, John (Govan)
Dillon, John Owen, Thomas Woodhouse,SirJT(Hudd'rsf'ld)
Donelan, Captain A. Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Woods, Samuel
Doogan, P. C. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Yoxall, James Henry
Duckworth, James Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) Randell, David TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Goddard, Daniel Ford Rickett, J. Compton Mr. Gibson Bowles and Mr. Duncombe.
Healy, Maurice (Cork) Roberts, J. H. (Denbighs)

Clause 5 agreed to.

New clause proposed— In every criminal prosecution after this Act in which the only witness to the facts of the case called upon by the defence shall be the prisoner himself, the counsel for the prosecution shall not have a general right of reply, but the prisoner shall be called as a witness immediately after the close of the case for the prosecution, and the counsel for the prosecution shall then proceed to sum up the whole case, leaving the prisoner or his counsel the right to reply generally."—(Mr. Lloyd Morgan.)

Question proposed— That this clause be read a second time.

*MR. LLOYD MORGAN

At the present time the practice is that if a prisoner calls, any witnesses in his own defence he thereby loses his right of reply. My clause proposes that in the event of the prisoner going into the witness-box and calling no other witness to speak to the facts of the case he shall not lose his right of reply. I am satisfied that this clause embodies a reasonable proposal, and one which it will be well for the Government to accept. It is a proposal which I think I am right in saying has the support of a very large body of opinion. I heard the Debate on the Second Reading of the Bill in another place, and on that occasion Lord Herschell, though a strong supporter of the Bill, expressed the opinion that a prisoner should not lose his right of reply if he went into a witness-box himself without calling any further evidence, and the Lord Chancellor, in replying on the Debate, stated his willingness to consider the question which Lord Herschell had mentioned. I cannot myself see that any of the Amendments which the Government have accepted on the Bill have at all altered the situation. The fact that they have admitted the principle of prohibiting counsel for the prosecution commenting on the absence of the prisoner from the witness-box does not in the slightest degree interfere with this question, and I am at a loss to see what ground there can be for refusing this concession to the prisoner. The practice in Scotland has always appeared to me to be far more acceptable than the practice adopted in this country.

Clause agreed to.

Another clause— (Duration of Act) brought up and read the first time.—(Mr. Pickersgill.)

MR. PICKERSGILL

The object of this Amendment is to limit the duration of the Bill to three years. Whether we support or object to this Bill, I do not suppose there is any Member of this House who will for a moment deny that it constitutes a tremendous innovation in the criminal laws of this country. I entertain strong fears as to the results of the Bill. I trust the evil results which I anticipate may not arise; but, at all events, the Committee will, I am sure, agree that this is a great experiment. It is quite in accordance with the practice of this House, and with many precedents which I might cite, to make an Act of this kind in the first instance a temporary Act; and in the case of this Bill I may claim, I think successfully, the support of the First Lord of the Treasury for the clause I now propose. A little time ago he said, "Wait and see how this Bill will work." That was the appeal that he addressed to honourable Members from Ireland. I repeat the appeal which the right honourable Gentleman then made, and I say, in the right honourable Gentleman's own words, let us wait and see how this Bill really works before we place it on the Statute Book as a permanent Measure. I suggest the period of three years because I think that is a reasonable period, but I am not at all bound to any particular period. If the right honourable Gentleman prefers to make it one or three or even five years I shall have no objection.

SIR R. WEBSTER

It cannot be denied that the principle suggested by my honourable and learned Friend has been embodied in a great many Acts of Parliament, but I venture to think that it is not at all applicable to this Bill. The House by a very large majority has affirmed the principle of the Bill, and we can see no reason for limiting its operation to any period of years.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER

In 1880, when we passed the first Employers' Liability Act, that Act was limited in its operation to seven years. Again, two years back we passed an Act assisting the landlords in the matter of their rates, and the duration of that Act was limited to five years. To-night we have had it on the very high authority of the Leader of the House that, this is experimental legislation. That was one of the reasons urged by him against the Measure being applied to Ireland. If it is experimental legislation—

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY

I never said so.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER

I do not remember the exact phrase used by the right honourable Gentleman, but my understanding was that what he said to Irish Members was "Wait and see what effect the Bill will have in this country." That is experimental legislation, and, surely, if it is experimental legislation, we might limit the operation of the Bill for a number of years. I think my

honourable and learned Friend might extend the term somewhat. Perhaps if he makes it five or seven, instead of three, the Government would not object.

MR. PICKERSGILL

I have no objection to five years.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER

Perhaps the Attorney General would be prepared to accept a five years' limit, although he disagreed with three years.

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY

The Committee will allow me to explain that I never said the Bill was experimental. What I said was that it was a Bill which I should like to see extended to Ireland, and that I thought that when Irish Members saw how it worked in England they would be prepared to accept the principle of the Measure for Ireland.

Question proposed— That the clause be read a second time.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 58; Noes 156.—(Division List No. 180.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Goddard, Daniel Ford Roberts, J. H. (Denbighs)
Allen, W. (Newc.-under-Lyme) Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. Hazell, Walter Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Beresford, Lord Charles Healy, Maurice (Cork) Stevenson, Francis S.
Billson, Alfred Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Strachey, Edward
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Holden, Sir Angus Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn) Horniman, Frederick John Tully, Jasper
Brigg, John Kilbride, Denis Ure, Alexander
Brunner, Sir J. Tomlinson Lees, Sir E. (Birkenhead) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Caldwell, James Leuty, Thomas Richmond Wedderburn, Sir Wiliam
Causton, Richard Knight Lough, Thomas Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Cawley, Frederick Macaleese, Daniel Williams, John C. (Notts)
Channing, Francis Allston McArthur, William (Corn.) Wilson, John (Govan)
Clough, Walter Owen M'Ghee, Richard Woodall, William
Daly, James Maddison, Fred. Woodhouse, Sir JT(Hudd'rsf'ld)
Dillon, John Norton, Capt. Cecil Wm. Woods, Samuel
Doogan, P. C. Nussey, Thomas Willans
Duckworth, James Owen, Thomas TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Randell, David Mr. Pickersgill and Mr. Broadhurst.
Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.) Richardson, J. (Durham)
Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. J. Rickett, J. Compton
NOES.
Allhusen, Augustus Henry E. Bullard, Sir Harry Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Burns, John Charrington, Spencer
Bagot, Capt. J. FitzRoy Butcher, John George Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.
Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness) Carlile, William Walter Coghill, Douglas Harry
Baird, J. G. Alexander Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward Cohen, Benjamin Louis
Balcarres, Lord Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs) Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse
Balfour,Rt.Hon.A.J. (Manc'r) Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.) Colomb, Sir J. C. Ready
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Cecil, E. (Hertford, E.) Compton, Lord Alwyne
Blundell, Col. Henry Cecil, Lord H. (Greenwich) Cook, F. Lucas (Lambeth)
Bond, Edward Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Cranborne, Viscount
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.) Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)
Brookfield, A. Montagu Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) Dalrymple, Sir Charles
Davenport, W. Bromley- Kenrick, William Ritchie, Rt. Hon C. T.
Denny, Colonel Kenyon, James Robertson, Herb. (Hackney)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P. Knowles, Lees Robinson, Brooke
Digby, J. K. D. Wingfield- Lafone, Alfred Round, James
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Laurie, Lieut.-General Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks) Rutherford, John
Fellowes, Hon. A. Edward Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Fergusson,RtHn.SirJ (Manc'r) Legh, Hon. T. W. (Lancs) Seely, Charles Hilton
Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Sharpe, William Edward T.
Finlay, Sir R. Bannatyne Llewelyn,SirDillwyn-(Sw'ns'a) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Fisher, William Hayes Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Smith, J. P. (Lanarks)
Fletcher, Sir Henry Loder, G W. Erskine Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Folkestone, Viscount Logan, John William Stanley, Lord (Lancs)
Forwood, Rt. Hon. Sir A. B. Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Stock, James Henry
Garfit, William Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l) Strauss, Arthur
Gibbons, J. Lloyd Lowe, Francis William Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Godson, Sir Augustus F. Lowles, John Sturt, Hon. Humphry N.
Goldsworthy, Major-General Loyd, Archie Kirkman Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Gordon, Hon. John Edward Lucas-Shadwell, William Talbot.RtHn. J.G. (Oxf'dUny.)
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E. Macartney, W. G. Ellison Tennant, Harold John
Goschen,Rt.Hn.G. J. (St.Geo's) McArthur, C. (Liverpool) Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)
Goschen, G. J. (Sussex) McKillop, James Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Graham, Henry Robert Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire) Thornton, Percy M.
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Milward, Colonel Victor Tollemache, Henry James
Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) Monckton, Edward Philip Tomlinson, W. E. M.
Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury) More, Robert Jasper Tritton, Charles Ernest
Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs) Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.) Valentia, Viscount
Gull, Sir Cameron Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) Warkworth, Lord
Haldane, Richard Burdon Morrell, George Herbert Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)
Hall, Sir Charles Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Halsey, Thomas Frederick Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G. Murray, Col. W. (Bath) Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W. Newdigate, Francis Alexander Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S. Wills, Sir William Henry
Heath, James Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord A. (Down) Pease, A. (Darlington) Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh., N.)
Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Phillpotts, Captain Arthur Wodehouse, E. R. (Bath)
Hobhouse, Henry Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Wylie, Alexander
Hornby, William Henry Pryce-Jones, Edward Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.
Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Purvis, Robert Young, Comm. (Berks, E.)
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Johnston, William (Belfast) Renshaw, Charles Bine
Johnstone, John H. (Sussex) Rentoul, James Alexander TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire) Richards, Henry Charles Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Kemp, George Robertson, Herb. (Hackney)

Schedule agreed to.

Bill ordered to be reported, as amended, to the House.